Arco, how much time do you jazz guys spend on it . . .

[Contrabates]

Hi Mike,

I've experienced the same feelings over the years and if you haven't checked out lessons with a real classical guy before, I can't recommend it enough. There are a billion subtle things going on in playing with a bow and in my experience as a arco playing jazz musician, I feel there is no way to just "earball" your way into finding them. A good classical guy with save you from hours and hours of wasted time.

I think one on the best teachers around the NYC area is Tony Falanga and if you want to play musically with a bow, he's your guy. That's his entire M.O....not to mention he's a generous, kind and astounding bass player. (the Ornette connection is pretty amazing too...)

If you are interested, pm me and I'll get you his contact info....

[natbers78]

When I was in college as a jazz studies major, it was a requirement that we take lessons on both side of the house (jazz and classical). At the time, I despised it. Now I can see where the bow helped me a lot...and I still practice with it to this day. The funny thing was, it was my jazz DB teacher (Jeff Halsey at BGSU), not my classical teacher who made it mandatory for all the bass players in his studio to do some time in the orchestra. I actually really enjoyed playing in a section. "The truth lies in the bow".

[Michael Case]

I don't despise practicing arco, I despise the way I SOUND playing arco. I believe that if I'm going to do it then I should do it well, the problem is I have no training with the bow and no "real world" application for it so I've never really had to pony up and improve my skills seriously. At this point it feels depressing and distracting to mangle anything I practice arco.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Why don't you try bowing the arpeggios of the changes to some tunes your trying to learn? Better than that, why don't you bow the melodies to them? I love doing that. Not every tune lends itself to the melodies being played on bass, but enough do.

I tried doing this at one point but was always disappointed in the results. Every time I've tried that, I put the bow down and go back to pizz cuz it's just awful.

The main problem is that if you can't sound like you're making music playing Simandl, you're not going to be making music playing Body And Soul. Just cause you switch material, it doesn't change your crappy sound. I think the other problem with jazz melodies is that for a bow to sound good, there has to be some amount of facility to make the sound more "vocal". Meaning, you have to be able to do slurs well and really have a good touch with the bow. And as mentioned before, you have to get more into a swing feel instead of a "square" one. For me at least, there's several more big hurdles to play jazz arco than there are playing etudes and whatnot. If you can't overcome them, it comes out sounding really really cheesy.

Originally Posted by MOOKIE

It just seems like the time I spend learning to control the bow could be used to transcribe or work on aspects of jazz playing.

I know I might be assuming a little too much in saying this but what's the hurry? So you blow a month spending it on your bow feel while keeping your jazz skills up to par, is that really that much to lose in the end? If you're just focusing on musicianship, what's to lose? I don't see what you're worried about. I understand the frustration of not sounding musical, but I don't think you're racing with anybody to ultimate virtuosity. (Actually you are and I'm just trying to distract you so I can get ahead. ) Who knows, good arco skills might improve your jazz skills in some unforeseen way. Obviously, it's already improved your bass playing in a fundamental way. Sounds like you're just a little overwhelmed and need to relax or something. Sorry if I'm off base saying any of this but that's the feeling I'm getting from you Mike.

[bmanbill]

I feel that nothing will improve your intonation and overall left hand approach more efficiently than practicing long tones arco with no vibrato. I recommend to my students (and even practice it myself!) that you use a drone and play scales, arpeggios, shifts etc SLOWLY while concentrating primarily on your pitch relative to the drone. A good side effect of long tone practice is improved right hand sound and stamina (be sure to use a relaxed bow grip and arm). In fact, if you have time for nothing else, just do your long tones. You will be pleasantly surprised how quickly ALL the aspects of your sound and pitch improve.

[musicman5string]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

I tried doing this at one point but was always disappointed in the results. Every time I've tried that, I put the bow down and go back to pizz cuz it's just awful.

The main problem is that if you can't sound like you're making music playing Simandl, you're not going to be making music playing Body And Soul. Just cause you switch material, it doesn't change your crappy sound. I think the other problem with jazz melodies is that for a bow to sound good, there has to be some amount of facility to make the sound more "vocal". Meaning, you have to be able to do slurs well and really have a good touch with the bow. And as mentioned before, you have to get more into a swing feel instead of a "square" one. For me at least, there's several more big hurdles to play jazz arco than there are playing etudes and whatnot. If you can't overcome them, it comes out sounding really really cheesy.

I agree with everything you're saying....I guess I'm fairly happy with my sound playing with the bow.
Couple of questions for you:
-How long have you been playing upright for and have you taken lessons?
-Is your bass set up well? Is it in a comfortable playing condition?
-Do you listen to bass players that play with the bow well? Michael Moore is a huge inspiration for me, just playing simple melodies to tunes with a great sound and feel. Eddie Gomez, Chrisitain McBride, and John Patitucci also are great arco jazz players.
I learned some classical technique in college, Simandl, Zimmerman, etudes, pieces, etc. but I never really enjoyed that stuff so much. When I just said "Screw it, I'm gonna try melodies to standards" my playing opened up alot.

Getting a teacher is a good idea, and I had good results by checking my intonation with the piano pedal held down as I was practicing. Also, having decent rosin and knowing how to use it is big. What strings are you using? Sometimes it's the bass that's a problem; example: I have a couple of students playing on lousy rental instruments. They have good fairly new strings, good rosin, decent bows, but they can't get a good sound...and neither can I on their basses. Cheap instruments are going to prevent your sound from happening. And I don't mean a Kay or whatever, I mean bottom of the barrel crap student instruments.

Also: you should listen to singers, horn players, guitarists, for their phrasing of a melody. It's possible to make Simandl sing, if you put in some dynamics, breath, articulations, and especially vibrato. Cellists are also very inspiring for these things.

[Michael Case]

I do have a teacher and listen to most of the players you have mentioned. I've been playing DB for 8 years now. My bass is well set-up, but it is not ideal for arco. I have played other basses arco and do achieve a more pleasing result. My bass gets a bit unruly when I bow. The wolf tone can be pretty dominant (even with the little brass weight), But I do like the pizz sound.

Mike

[Damon Rondeau]

Mookie, I think you and I have a lot in common.

The other day, for a recording project, I busted out the bow for the first time in 6 months. 6 months ago I was coming off another 6-month phase where my practicing was all about arco and intonation. So I went from almost all-bow practice to no-bow practice (I NEVER perform using the bow -- I've no faith at all that I'll sound good enough in real time.)

I haven't been with a teacher for about a year now, but my practice hasn't lost focus like some people suppose it must without a teacher. It's self-guided. I plunged into 3 octave scales with the bow and loooong tones and all that because I was frustrated with my sloppy left hand precision. I think the 6-month bow intensive helped a bit. But I got to the same point you're at, Mook: I realized I have a LOT of jazz ground to cover and all that bow work was certainly getting me somewhere but it wasn't getting me to my jazz destination. Very simply put: it was not getting me to my jazz destination.

So the bow went into the case and I busted out the metronome and the singing and the melody-learning and I've covered a bunch of that jazz ground.

Don't beat yourself up for not being able to do everything all at the same time. Don't beat yourself up for having your goals and your agenda. You know about the bow and what it's good for -- you'll be back to the stick o'pain when you're good and ready. Start in on that jazz stuff and do it your way. As others have pointed out -- there's a lot of time. But you're playing jazz now, man -- if there's a major sucking going on there then you've gotta take care of business the best way you know how.

Personally, my own clock is heading back towards C.A.T. -- central arco time. Maybe one day I'll be able to reliably play a beautiful Stardust....

[joel kelsey]

I agree that the bass can make a big difference in arco playing. I played a Kay all through music school and I had arco lessons and I practiced about 3 hours a day with the bow. It was very difficult for me to sound good, even on etudes! Needles to say, I got very frustrated and went to practicing pizz mostly. When I got my carved bass my arco got better immediatley because I could really hear myself and the pitch. My bass also resonates when I bow in tune which helps a lot. Now I still practice mostly pizz, but I practice arco for about one third of my practice time. Now when I do resteraunt jazz gigs I try to at least one arco solo a night. When you throw yourself in a musical situation you are kind of forced to play musically whether with the bow or pizz. Don't give up on the bow! Not only can you play beautiful melodies, you can also make interesting sounds. The bow is just one more tool we as bass players are very fortunate to be able to make music with.

[Michael Case]

I don't know about the beautiful melodies, but the interesting sounds part I know.

[musicman5string]

LOL.

[Aaron Saunders]

I go through cycles where I'll practice with the bow all the time, play melodies, solos, even accompanying parts to ballads on the bow in the practice room...occasionally breaking it out in jams, for months at a time. Then, for some reason, I lose complete interest and and stop using it entirely for a long time. Not even practicing technique with it. I'll probably pick it up when I get back from reading week, but I didn't even bring it back home from res for the time I'm here.

This year I spent a lot of time with the bow in first semester, but I haven't done much with it since December or so. I'll probably pick it up again after I get back to school after this week ("spring" break) but I didn't even bring it with me when I left res for 7 days. I do the same thing with electric bass...won't play it for months at a time, but sporadic interest will happen occasionally and I'll shed it like crazy for a while.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by mike da mook

. . . and when does it stop being helpful? I ask because I feel like I'm spending too much time with the bow working on etudes, scales, and arpeggios and not enough time trying to improve my skills as a jazz bassist (learning melodies, and working on the Joe/Ed exercise). I feel like my progress with the bow is stunted because I spend no time outside the practice room using it and I get discouraged. I know it's beneficial to work with the bow as well as being the way the instrument is meant to be played. I also know that many people on this site (Chris F and Ed to name two) don't do arco practice and sound GREAT.

Mike,
I think that it will work either way. It kind of depends on what you have "grown up with musically." Since I spent about 6 years with a very fine classical teacher I will usually "go to the bow" when I'm perparing for a concert. Practicing lines and solos with the bow opens
them up for me, and allows me to listen to what I'm playing more carefully. But, I also practice solos in the dark. Whatever it takes to really get your ears going.
What's also interesting is that when you move a line or solo over to the bow and back to pizz it gets cleaned up.

Ric

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Couple of questions for you:
-How long have you been playing upright for and have you taken lessons?
-Is your bass set up well? Is it in a comfortable playing condition?
-Do you listen to bass players that play with the bow well?

What strings are you using?

For myself, Yes to all the above. My teacher gets a beautiful sound out of my bass. It is a newer bass and it is probably harder to get a "great" sound, but it does sound good. The problem isn't the equipment. It's my skill with the bow that's lacking. I suppose I could keep trying and turn off any self-criticism about the sound I get and maybe, eventually I'd get there.

Still, I don't feel like playing heads with a bow. I know I'd feel better about it if I can get my slurs down.

[Marc Piane]

I spend 80-90% of my practice time arco. I never play classical professionally but classical pieces, etudes, and scales are a big part of my practice routine. I also do the melodies and root motion of the jazz tunes I am working on. As people have said, it is a good way to work on intonation. The biggest thing about intonation for me is really hearing intervals. I feel like I can hear intervals best when I am playing with a bow.

I very rarely play with a bow on a jazz gig. About 3 months ago I took the bow quiver off my bass. Personally I don't care for the sound of arco in jazz. I'm probably a minority here but it just doesn't do it for me. I felt like having a quiver and taking out my bow was false advertising. There are exceptions (especially when I am playing free, rock, world, gypsy, etc) but as a rule I leave my bow in the case at jazz gigs.

Funny story, I had a drummer on a standards job ride me about using a bow on ballads. I am a pretty polite guy but being from a big south side (Chicago) Italian family, I grew up not taking ****. I finally said, without raising my voice "Do I tell you what to use to hit the drums?" Not another word.

[musicman5string]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

Still, I don't feel like playing heads with a bow. I know I'd feel better about it if I can get my slurs down.

Ok, why don't you try "Easy To Love", "Yesterdays", or "You'd Be So Nice To Come Home To"? P.C. played those heads and his bow technique, while great, isn't exactly Casals. Therefore, you won't feel so intimidated trying to emulate.

What was this thread about again? Playing with the bow? Are you a jazz player primarily? How old are you? I recall you saying in another thread you've done 2 jazz gigs or something, if you're the same person I'm thinking of...

[musicman5string]

Also hdiddy: I know it's only February, but I'm gonna be out in San Fransico in May; if you want to get together one afternoon and hang, maybe we can talk some bass in person.