Beginning a phrase in Thumb position-- Target practice?

[kurkomat]

Question for the bass world- do any of you have advice for beginning a phrase that is in thumb position? E.g.- let's say you want to play the head to Solar starting on the high C on the G string (we're in thumb position here.) How do you go about finding that C? I've seen guys pluck around and find the octave harmonic prior to a piece beginning but I don't see this as a practical (or frankly professional) way of nailing high notes after a piece has started. Ideally I want to be able to initiate the note right on. Any tips?
FYI, yes, I have asked my teacher and unfortunately his answer was not as helpful as I'd like. I've worked through Simandl and Petracchi's Thumb position book.... these contain really good exercises that:

1. get you in and out of thumb position by using approach notes
2. increase dexterity while in thumb position

But I can't find any material on how to hit the target note cold (i.e. without walking up into it.) Any suggestions? I'm open to any exercises / methods / materials folks have found that help with this. Thanks!

[Eli_Upright12]

You just gotta play up there, when you get used to how it feels you can find notes by knowing where you are on the bass and the stretch between your fingers.

[Bass Catcher]

Play anything and everything up there. Transpose all your music an octave up. I did a lot of work playing omni-book solos up in Tpos, transcribed solos to stretch my technique up there, played heads, played Simandl etudes, etc etc etc. I too felt the exact same way you did - I could play a phrase INTO tpos, but how in the hell was I supposed to nail a note cold with no reference point?

Now I feel like I can do this - and the reason for that is I've played up there enough now, that I know what a high C "feels like". It's not something that comes over night, just keep playing up there, you'll get it if you are persistent.

Matt

P.S. Another good exercise that I worked a lot was playing octaves on one string. i.e. Ab on G string (top of staff) - then play Ab an octave higher (I always "targeted" this higher note with my thumb, but I suppose you could target with fingers 1, 2 or 3. But I felt I needed the most strengthening of my thumb)

[kurkomat]

thanks much guys- this helps.

[Big_Fat_Dynamo]

to find notes like up in thumb position like that, you need to be able to feel where to anchor your thumb. a good way to do this it to play the f or the f sharp in 3rd position. then gliss up to the g transfering to your thumb on the way up to the g. This will allow you to feel where the g is. Then to find the C you just need to play up there until your muscles know the spacing inbetween notes, just like you had to do when you first started low on the neck. another way to practice finding the g harmonic (or any other note) is finding it, and then take your hand down relax your muscles, and then try and find it again, then repeat. Hope that helps!

[Marc Piane]

Michael Moore wrote a nice book on TP.

[MR PC]

Last time I checked, my brain had a memory for body movement and appropriate appendage placement

You want to play bass like the Scarecrow in "The Wizard of OZ" you will rely on "muscle memory". If so, keep on floppin' on, dude.

I would not be just a nothin',
My head all full of stuffin',
My heart a' full of pain.

I would laugh and be merry,
Life would be a ding-a-derry,
If I only had a brain

[damonsmith]

A combination of muscle memory, practice and ear training is the easiest way. If you have a good set up and practice the upper register doesn't need to be any more mysterious than the lower.
Lots of scales and Bach at 'cello pitch helps.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by kurkomat

Ideally I want to be able to initiate the note right on. Any tips?

Use a pencil mark.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

Use a pencil mark.

+1. There's that too.

No matter what anyone says there is no stigma or shame in doing that.

[damonsmith]

I had never gone through Solar beyond a few sight readings on jazz gigs years ago. Tonight in response to this thread I learned the melody in both octaves, not super tough and it sings really nice arco!
That whole singing thing comes into play here - I will argue the need to be able to get beyond the self in a post John Cage way and play things beyond what you can sing or even imagine for pages - but if you want to play a set melody singing it is a real fast way and if you can sing you are going to have an easier time playing it.

In one of my lessons with Bert Turetzky I asked him about thumb position and he said' "It is a position like any other."
Meaning being able to hold the position is going to help a lot.
A good position and knowing what a C sounds like is going to be a real good start. Even better is knowing what "Solar" sounds like!

[brake]

Originally Posted by fingers

+1. There's that too.

No matter what anyone says there is no stigma or shame in doing that.

Seriously? I read about a ton of things on here that would supposedly get me shunned by most players. I'm just starting to venture up into thumb position (I figured I would wait until I can play well enough down low) and a small pencil mark or something like that at the high C would help immensely.

[damonsmith]

Marks are not shameful. Especially early on when you need to do something like start on a high C. Bass players are usually in over our heads, but that is how we learn.

[EggyToast]

Exactly. If you need to nail it tomorrow, or if you're worried that at a performance in a couple months you're going to miss it, put a pencil mark or a bit of tape on your neck.

You get shunned by players if you brag about your chops but rely on pencil marks (for obvious reasons ;D). You shouldn't get shunned, nor feel embarrassed, by stating, if it comes up, "I have a mark that I'm using for now, I'm trying to get past it."

My first bass, an electric upright (EUB), had dots on the neck. My teacher didn't criticize them and said that if I need to find a note, use them, but don't just play staring at the neck. He did a good thing and forced me to use sheet music, so I couldn't look at the neck unless I was off.

My current bass, an old Kay, obviously doesn't have dots, and I'm damn pleased to say that I can hit higher notes w/o having a mark. But I haven't made the jump to thumb position yet.

So I look at it this way -- pencil marks and tape are training wheels on a bike. A lot of people need training wheels to get started, but after a while, you realize that you're riding your bike just fine and the trainers aren't even on the ground! You just have to know when it's time to take your trainers off ;D


edited to add: The other cool thing about eventually moving on from training wheels on your bass is that it's more impressive to non-players ;D On my old bass, my guitar playing friend was able to stick his fingers on my bass and get some notes, and said "ah, I get it, this isn't that hard." Of course, he could only make noise by looking at the dots! On my Kay, I'm the only one who can play it among my friends. That's a lot more fun!

[Eric Hochberg]

Look guys, Edgar Meyer has markers. If he uses them, what's the problem? The most important thing is to get the job done, period! One of my students did an audition cd for college a couple of weeks ago. On his classical piece (which I'm not teaching him), he had to start on a high D and kept hitting it flat. I told him to mark the correct spot, and the next take, he nailed it.

Next time someone razzes you about markers, ask them if they would talk to Edgar like that.