Being assertive with the beat

[Damon Rondeau]

I'd appreciate folks' thoughts and comments about working with other players in a jazz combo to keep the beat steady and swinging.

It's become apparent to me that I'm a bit of an easy pushover with the beat. I've worked pretty hard in the last year or so on getting and keeping a good swinging pulse. But the recordings don't lie and listening to last night's job has got me thinking.

The drummer in my normal quartet has a tendency to speed up -- I do have some ability to rein him in a bit but often I'll go with it. Not wanting the tension or sweaty work, I guess. Anyway, last night we did a gig without him and used a second guitar player instead. This second guy is a good player, good teacher, great rep, but he lays back behind the beat in a big way. In listening to our work last night, the first set was full of stuff that slowed down appallingly -- chorus by chorus the tempos drop slighty and by the end of the tune we're too goddamn slow. The leader mentioned it in between sets and the second set was much better.

So here's the thing -- why am I such a floozy with the beat that I can let one guy take me faster and another guy take me slower? I do a fair bit of metronome work already and don't have too much trouble getting a groovy feel happening -- it's keeping it happening indefinitely and working on the fly with these speed freaks and laggers that I'm looking at focusing on right now. I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on the topic.

Oh yeah, here's a thing I could say about my playing in ensembles: I care deeply about groove and I listen to drummers and other significant rhythm-pattern producers (guitar, mandolin, conga, etc.) pretty closely. I like to hear us make a feel together that's got a bigger-than-the-sum-of-its-parts thing going on. I think this is significant because I think it means I'll follow these partners far too close to The Burning Flames without noticing what's going on. At any given time it sounds good but over the long haul it's moving. Faster I don't mind too much but slower is death, as most of you know.

[Alex Scott]

Well, are you listening for guidance, or are you listening for confirmation?

I find if I am listening and just trying to react to what is going on that I'm all over the place. If I listen in a way that is more listening to the ensemble, and checking what everyone is doing, then I can be a better leader.

Everyone always says listen, listen, but what should you really listen for?

Also, how do you keep track of the tempos in your mind?

this is something I struggle with.

Do you always subdivide quarters, try to lay down the beat, 2 and 4, click downbeats, and at what tempos.

It seems like their is some identifiable range where one can keep a beat steady, and everything around that range is a derivative of that.

It also seems like there are two basic things to having your time together, one is getting the beat, the other is subdividing within the beat.

What is everyone's experience with that, what are your "issues," and what can we all work on to get this stuff happening?

[Damon Rondeau]

Good question, good point. I'd say I'm listening for groove -- in other words, I'm trying to be pretty much in the moment and with some definite attention bandwidth allocated to rhythm, to listening for the group groove to be there.

Not listening as a rhythm leader is another way to put it, I guess.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

If the drummer is playing on top and you play on top, it'll speed up. If he's playing behind and you play behind, it'll slow down. If the drummer plays on top and you play right on, the space in between feels like "the pocket". If the drummer plays behind and you play on top or right on, same thing. It's weird, but we all go through it, and it's different with every person. The drummer I play with most is Jason Tiemann, and we both like to play on top, but we also realize that we're gonna end up in Alvin/Chipmunk land if we don't share the responsibility for holding it back somewhat, so we have a little system of communication worked out...likewise for who stays home and who stretches in certain situations. It's great playing with him, but it took us years to get to this point, and I hope we have many more to come to work it out further.

I remember the last time I saw Elvin, he was playing so far behind that I actually got pissed at the bass player for rushing during the show. I heard the recording later and the groove sounded fat as hell. Go figure...

Bottom line is, play it where you feel it, but play with the other players. Listen to your recordings a lot, and follow your heart about what your hear when you do. And like you said, dragging is death.

[WillBuckingham]

In my experience, which isn't much compared to Chris's and a lot of the posters here, if someone is playing behind the beat, I can stay far enough on top of it to keep the tempo consistent and maintain a good feel and swing. If I'm playing with a drummer who plays ahead of the beat, I either have to work really hard to hold things back and often have a really negative effect on the feel, or just go along with it. When I do wind up playing with those kinds of drummers, which I try to avoid, I normally just let things speed up until it settles into a better groove.

Good luck!

[Cory Palmer]

I don't play any jazz but I think this applies to classical and jazz. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The bass mainly plays accompaniment so most bass players are good at following and not so good at leading. I know I had trouble when I first started playing solos with piano accompaniment. I kept wanting to follow the pianist. Sometimes I would think that I was leading but I was actually following. Don't be afraid to push or pull the tempo. If you are solid and play with confidence the group will follow.

[Johnny L]

If you want to swing, you've gotta give people something that allows them to expect the next thing you do...so they can do whatever with security.

It only has to be one thing or person who is taking care of this rhythmic issue, but somebody has to do it. It's sort of like having a designated driver to take care of all the partygoers.

That's my take, anyway.

[ctxbass]

It is tough when everyone's not on the same page. I've worked with many drummers and it's beautiful when you find one who feels it the way you do. In an unrehearsed/new situation it can take a little time to settle into a comfort zone. Your confidence can wane a bit when things don't feel right.
If things are really swinging hard (IME) there is a tendency for the tempo to pick up. This isn't necessarily bad and you can hear it on numerous recordings. An aware drummer and bassist can bring it back down within reason. I prefer feel to a stiff time cop any day.

[Uncletoad]

I feel like it's important for me to indicate where I feel the tune is happening and try to share that with everyone else. When everyone has a similar concept of time that negotiation is comfortable. When I work with others that have very different ideas of where its at then I have to clearly state where I think it should be or choose to follow another I think has it. Generally I'm a pretty aggressive but reasonably stable player and tend to get people rallied together when I clearly state where I think it is.

Last week I played in a big messy 12 piece band. I ended up pretty much muscling through the tunes and defining exactly where I though it should be as that ensemble was all over the place and someone needed to lord over the mess. It worked reasonably well. Its amazing how much influence a single note linear bassline has over chordal instruments. You almost always sound right if you play with conviction and authority whether you are or not.

I played with 4 very different drummers in the last 2 weeks and like Chris I had to find a spot that worked with each. One fellow I've worked with off and on for 20 years. We've pretty much worked out where we are with each other. For years He'd push and I'd pull and it worked. Now we're pretty much together all the time. Its an old shoe relationship.

Another fellow I've done several different kinds of gigs with. He tends to be way back in the pocket. With him I tend to push way out front. If we are swinging and he can get the ride out there with me it really happens. Doesn't always get there. Sometimes we just end up disagreeing and the grove evaporates.

Another guy I was playing just my second hit with. Very strong stylist with somewhat uneven but assertive time. I found myself trying to stay real at home and find a spot in the middle that he could work around without giving up to much or getting in his way. Half the time it was really happening, others it was just ok.

It was much more of a challenge when the grooveless keyboardist was trying to get in there with us and much easier when the guitarist was comping.

His concept was pretty cool despite the tempo weirdness. I suspect if we worked together awhile we might settle in better. I hit again with him Saturday and It should be interesting to go around in the same tunes again.

Overall I tend to play on the backside rather than the front. It's not really a choice as much as familiarity. My pop/rock roots really show there. When I'm trying to swing it does get in the way as I think I should try to be on the front side when swinging. I play deeper in the pocket when I'm playing funk stuff. I feel the forward bounce/heavy on the one thing more naturally. When I play heavier rock stuff I'm so far behind I'm in yesterday. The bass works nice back there in lazyland when you are holding the reins for everyone else that is pushing forward frenetically.

[Michael Case]

I find I'm a bit of a follower when it comes to time. I'm trying to change this, but whenever I try to assert myself timewise I feel like the groove just dies. The only time I can be assertive and it works is when a drummer and I are swinging on top and the drums start to run, then I can dig in and eventually he will come back to me. I have no ability to deal with a lagging drummer. If I try to keep pushing it gets real ugly.

[JimmyM]

My 1.99999 cents (and some of you won't like hearing this but it needs to be said):

Bass players in general tend to be a rather timid and lazy lot. By lazy I don't mean they don't like to practice, but they're not used to being put in a position of leadership and they tend to be easily led by the nose by more assertive members of the band. They don't often have the ability to reign in the assertive members of the band when they go out to lunch. Those who do, however, get most of the good gigs.

The generally accepted concept is that the drummer sets the time and rhythm of the song and everyone else lets him and follows. I believe that is a totally fallacious concept put forth by drummers because they want to be the big cheese. Every single person in the band is responsible for keeping the time. To pawn it off on someone else is the height of laziness. But people being as they are, the job of keeping everyone together falls on the bassist. If the drummer rushes, the bassist needs to keep him reigned in as much as possible. If a guitarist plays behind the beat so much that you drag to a crawl, then you as a bassist need to keep the tempo constant and not allow him to drag you down to his level. If you don't, then you have failed. Some players are so out to lunch that reigning them in is an impossibility, but you as a bassist have to put forth a good faith effort into stopping them from screwing everything up. OK, I know we've established this fact in the previous posts, but how exactly is it done?

Contrary to popular belief, it's not done by practicing with a metronome. The metronome is there strictly so you can work on your own internal clock. It's done by the bassist having confidence. Pure and simple. You need to have the confidence that when you lay down a bass line, you are the man. You need to have the confidence that you can spot someone else in the band screwing up the tempo and not let it sway you. If you feel the drummer rushing, you need to have the confidence that he is wrong and play behind his beat to slow him down. If the guitarist drags, you need to drag him kicking and screaming to your speed and don't allow him to lead you down the path of ruin.

Damon, your problem is twofold...lack of confidence and laziness. You said it yourself..."Not wanting the tension or sweaty work, I guess." Well guess what? Bass playing is all about tension and sweaty work. You have to develop the confidence to know that you are right, then you have to be the jerk who smacks everyone else on the head when they screw up. Period. Simple as that. Does that mean you're going to be right all the time? No. But it does mean you're not going to let some lamer push you around like the 98 lb. weakling at Muscle Beach.

Also, on a side note, I'd like to explore this comment you made at the end of your initial post...

"I care deeply about groove and I listen to drummers and other significant rhythm-pattern producers (guitar, mandolin, conga, etc.) pretty closely."

Listening to everyone is important, no doubt. But do not let the drummer's parts dictate to you what you play. The bassist should play what he feels makes the song work and the drummer should adapt to you, never vice versa. All this stuff about the bassist locking in with the kick drum...BULLCRAP! That's what makes a rhythm section boring. It's all so predictable when that happens and you'll never come up with inventive parts. No, the drummer needs to lock in with you. You are getting your ideas of what to play from the lead rhythm instrument, and the drummer needs to be getting his ideas of what to play from you and the lead rhythm instrument. I don't even care if the drummer is signing my paycheck...the day I ever let a drummer's part dictate to me what to do is the day I sell off all my basses and retire.

Now go out on your next gig and stand tall and proud and confident in your abilities to lead, not follow. And if anyone has a problem with it, kick them in the sack. After you get paid, of course!

[jheise]

+1

That's exactly my experience of the last years. But it got me in a lot of fights with the drummers, guitarists and piano-players I played with. But in the end the always agreed with me. Recordings don't lie

Jan

[JimmyM]

LOL...well you don't TELL them that they're supposed to follow you, Jan! But like you said, if they want to make something of it, record it, then they have a permanent record of the error of their ways.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

I don't play any jazz but I think this applies to classical and jazz. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The bass mainly plays accompaniment so most bass players are good at following and not so good at leading. I know I had trouble when I first started playing solos with piano accompaniment. I kept wanting to follow the pianist. Sometimes I would think that I was leading but I was actually following. Don't be afraid to push or pull the tempo. If you are solid and play with confidence the group will follow.

I do agree with JimmyM and others - I think this is one sense where Jazz is quite different to other types of music.

So I can remember starting to play Jazz after coming from rock groups and with some classical experience - it was a huge wake-up call and a big shock that suddenly you are responsible for the time!!

So unlike rock - where drummer/guitarist is squarely outlining the structure of the song, in Jazz you often find that you are the only person signalling the chord changes and driving the band along - the band is OK when playing the head, but then into blowing, you suddenly find that piano might lay out or only play the occasional chord and it's really up to you to state where we are!

I think it is all about having the confidence to say - this is where we are - this is exactly where the chord changes!

Of course I agree, that time is everybody's responsibility, but I have found in practice that as the one providing continuous harmonic/ryhthmic information it falls to the bassist in Jazz to be assertive and it is about how you get the confidence to do this...?

[JimmyM]

Bruce, good followup but I even carry that approach to my rock and funk gigs, not just jazz. I am very far from being a heavy-duty jazz cat, but I've never been the type of bass player to be content to let the guitarist and drummer dictate to me how to play. Maybe it's because I wrote a lot of songs the earlier bands I was in did. Or maybe I'm just an a-hole. I don't know

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well as you say I was probably being lazy before and Jazz has provided a big wake-up call!

Just to add that this is not my own intepretation of how it should be, but something that I have gathered from many Jazz teachers and I have had some very good classes with Jazz pros who are horn players, who have really made it clear they are looking for confidence from the bass player!

[Damon Rondeau]

I appreciate the comments, keep 'em coming.

I share the same background as a lot of you -- I played R&B and other kinds of groove & dance music for a couple of decades. I've known the joy of taking a floor full of dancers and stirring them like a stew by working the groove from the bass chair. My experience is that groove shows up when the pieces fit together just so (I've never been a kick/bass lockup slave, but the snare is a different story altogether.) I have NEVER found any groove at all when we get into disagreements about the pulse, although I have to say it rarely came up in non-jazz music.

And yeah, I've know for a while about my job and duties as a bass player in a jazz combo. What's become apparent to me is that this seems to be more about psychology at this point than it is about technique. One technical thing that seems to be going on is that I seem to be playing sort of "head down". In other words, maybe I'm too deep into the groove of the immediate moment and therefore the big time picture seems to be getting away from me. It does seem to be a thread of what folks are saying so far that when you get assertive (corrective?) with the beat, the groove goes away...

Another thing: the guy who wrote the cheque at the end of Monday's wedding reception gig had a HUGE smile on his face. He and all his guests dug us a lot -- I'm the one who's sitting there going "how did I not notice I was getting dragged into the quick sand?"

[Michael Case]

One thing I do believe though, and that is you can't force the tempo to much. After a while you have to for the sake of the music let the beat breath a little.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

It does seem to be a thread of what folks are saying so far that when you get assertive (corrective?) with the beat, the groove goes away...

Sort of.

I think that groove is a negotiation and a shared sense of time and feel. Sometimes when the tempo is pushed one way or the other to far the feel stops working. In those cases I tend to more aggressively state my position so that we may have a collective spot to rally around. When everyone listening and feeling each other things snap back quickly without discussion or dissention. So in those cases being assertive is helpful.

There are times when I want it to be somewhere and an equally assertive person wants it elsewhere and so we have to find ways to come together. Sometimes I have to move to where they are. There have been occasions when people I'm playing with have felt the tune VERY differently than I may be used to or have considered. In those occasions if I allow myself to find where they are I have learned something new. A new approach or sense of where the music is. That can be really great. OTOH sometimes the players just don't have the same understanding of music that I do or are just hacking about. That can lead to a very uninspiring night.

[Sam Sherry]

Damon, next question: Are there certain tempos or grooves where you feel like you're more in charge?