Big band charts & "bass fines"

[chop_1992]

Right Bruce, I would also agree with Mark Anthony Turnage that he is not a jazz composer, rather just a composer, or "contemporary composer" (meaning that he is still alive and going strong). He is fantastic, and part of his talent lies in his ability to assimilate so many styles. I think any composer who is seriously writing these days has to acknowledge the jazz language—even if they do not use it in a traditional jazz style.

So, I know what you mean about jazz and non-jazz categories. What is interesting for me quite often is that since I play full-time in a big band, there is a certain quality of sound that sounds "like" jazz. Even when we are playing music that is not really jazz-based, it is still the same instrumentation as a jazz big band, so it produces a sound that is hard to disguise as anything else other than a (jazz) big band.

What did raise my hackles for about 2 seconds was his statement about “a European composer’s view of an American player." He wasn't going to make a distinction about jazz or not-jazz, but the American/European pigeon-hole was okay. I thought it was curious that he avoided the jazz word by bringing up a the European/American generalization. I know he does not really see things that way, and he works with all types of musicians from wherever, as long as they play his music well.


T.B. You're right about the quality of the bass player being all-important, but I also think the arrangement/arranger is the key element in a big band chart. Of course, the bass player has to be able to interpret the chart well, and that is where experience comes into play.

And as JGBass points out, it is extremely important to always play in the style of the arrangement when improvising. If I can tell that the written bass line has no real orchestral importance to the arrangement, I will just play a similar (better) line that fits, but remains true to the style.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Yes - strange - although there is a certain "divide" between American and European Jazz. So the latter is often blurred with folk,chamber or contemporary classical music - e.g. some of Jan Garbarek's Jazz, sounds more like chamber music and may use folk melodies.

Whereas US Jazz has a clear line back to the Blues/Gospel etc. "uncontaminated" by any other styles...?

[fergus currie]

With the due respect that is appropriate to chop 1992 (anyone that has played under Vince M. and Bob Brookmeyer is already there) I agree with almost everything he says.

The point I'm going to try to make may not even be relavent to this discussion and chop 1992 definitely falls on the right side of the fence but when you says Turnage 'does not really see things that way', do you mean that

A, he really does makes distictions (jazz/nonjazz exist and thus all other distictions) or
B, that he doesn't (American/European doesn't exist and thus none other distictions)?

I will go 'bigot look-a-like' however on this one. Descriptive pidgeon-holeing is fine by me; American/European, jazz/non-jazz, Dixieland/Bebop even Black jazz/White jazz is fine since it allows the other person to refer to differences which facilitate at least identification. Imagine a player saying I don't differentiate between bebop and dixieland! Would you hire him in a bebop group to find that half the time he plays 2 in a bar root and fifth to Donna Lee? Neither would I.
Anthony Turnage, while being a Brittish composer with a (punk) rock background, writes classical music with jazz influneces. That helps me. What doesn't help me understand what he writes (without hearing it) is that he makes no distinction between styles or influences (presumably through fear of being declared a bigot). There is no class or quality distiction being made by describing things in terms of what they actually are.

It takes years of experience to know what is a better line than the one given. I've been playing in, arranging for and directing Big bands for the past 25 years and I still wouldn't like to second guess the written line simply because I know how much time and effort goes into the whole structure. Does anyone know the Chico O'Farril arrangement of 'Lady Is A Tramp' with reduced brass? The bass line is rediculous and almost unreadable it's so chromatic! On its own it sounds awful but with the band these notes suddenly become the 'only' notes! Looks can be deceptive - like mine; I'm not really a bigot....
FC

[chop_1992]

Originally Posted by fergus currie

A, he really does makes distictions (jazz/nonjazz exist and thus all other distictions) or
B, that he doesn't (American/European doesn't exist and thus none other distictions)?

FC

Hi Fergus,
I can't say for sure what he meant—I'm not in his shoes. I think that Turnage was interviewed for the program notes and he just said what he said off the cuff—no big deal.

There are definitely European jazz and American jazz styles, but a lot of times these differences are used as convenient shoe boxes for critics, liner note writers, and journalists to talk about the music—it comes from Europe, so it must be . . . he's an American player so it must be . . .

The reason I said that I don't think Turnage really believes that is because he works with players from all over, and I think he chooses players and ensembles not because they are European or American (or anything else), but because they can play his music well.

When he described his piece as “a European composer’s view of an American player,” it sounded a little funny to my ear. This was his alternative labeling in response to the reporter's insistence on calling the music jazz or classical. A lot of times the confusion stems from writing and verbalizing about what should be heard as simply "music." But in an interview, or the program notes for a concert, a writer (journalist) will look for a hook to describe the music.

I agree with you that it is completely appropriate to label styles of music according to certain set standards of practice and historical perspective.

If you have time, please check out the video from my new release, "Space for the Bass". It's with Karolina Strassmayer (Austria), Martin Sasse (Germany), Hans Dekker (Netherlands) and myself (USA). We recorded the date here in Cologne. We are playing a tune that I wrote that might be perceived as being influenced by Mingus and Ellington. So, is it European or American?

Uh-oh, way off topic . . . back to the big band stuff. I love the John Kirby Sextet: The Biggest Little Band in the Land. Okay . . .it's not a big band, but I like it anyway.

Thanks to all for the stimulating thread!

[Jazzdogg]

Very nice playing, Mr. Goldsby:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiHqXltQbSo

[chop_1992]

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

Very nice playing, Mr. Goldsby:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiHqXltQbSo

Thanks, Jazzdogg! It is always a pleasure to play Maria Schneider's music. She has a great sense of color and drama in her compositions and arrangements, and a tune like the one here (Last Season) just plays itself from a soloist's perspective.

[fergus currie]

Originally Posted by chop_1992

It's with Karolina Strassmayer (Austria), Martin Sasse (Germany), Hans Dekker (Netherlands) and myself (USA). We recorded the date here in Cologne. We are playing a tune that I wrote that might be perceived as being influenced by Mingus and Ellington. So, is it European or American?

I'm waiting fir the video to load right now but hey John it's what you say: American/European Ellington/Mingus-inspired Jazz and it sound great! (It just kicked in)

Just for the record I love this thread too!

Let's have more Big Band talk here...

FC

[Fred W]

I play a lot of big band and no way can I agree that arranger knows best, at least not all the time. Any one familiar with Thad Jones' arrangement of Groove Merchant? Most of it is awkward and does not line up well with what the horns are playing. Some of it does. After many performances I still mostly play what's written, I find it's good practice to read such lines. First time through any chart I read the ink and listen, to find out what must be played as is. I have charts with all notes, charts with both notes and chord symbols, and some with just chords. Some I am happy to play the ink till the end of my days, some I improve the second time around. The same arranger could have both scenarios.

[groovlow]

mr f

I would love to play one of your arrangements or compositions.

Originally Posted by fergus currie

I know this was like a cheap shot but I wanted him to see how much work and thought had already gone into the bass part. He quickly reverted to the written part.
FC

How many crappy bass lines have we read that were examples of an arranger's power play? A personal issue with
the bass player? how about the drummer ? he gets all the attention

Arrangers please give the chords too. If you are lucky bands that you never imagined will be sight reading your chart on a gig. Serve your MUSIC and RHYTHM section with the chords.

Sammy Nestico bass parts are spot on. Most of his charts have chords and notes. Notes that inspire me from phrase to phrase. If i'm sight reading and i mis ss something (hear the stumble?) i can serve THE MUSIC and deliver with some authority.

...if it aint got that...

joe

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by chop_1992

...One of the key skills in playing big band charts is the ability to jump back and forth between written lines and improvised lines seamlessly, so a listener can not tell whether the line is written or improvised...

This is so very true . . .



It's also very important when recording . . . pop music, a dramatic TV show, film music, etc. . . . to truly interpret the music as if you are playing it for the first time . . . even if it's the 17th take . . . the bassist needs to be "in the moment" at all times . . .


EDIT . . . actually, ALL of the musicians in a recording session need to be "in the moment" at all times . . .

[fergus currie]

It is a fact that there are a lot of third rate arrangers out there writing very quickly to meet deadlines and the first thing to suffer in these cases is the bass line. But think about it, if he was to give you chords too (or instead) would these chords not be subject to the same slapdash shoddy thinking that went into the bass line? I've seen bass parts that give chords and notes, in which the chords are so simplified that a 'non reader' bassist could probably do a better job playing by ear! The problem is not so much whether chords or notes are more appropriate but whether the arranger has the skill and the time to write a decent line! As for Thad's base lines, I have to dissagree. Most of Thad's charts are for Richard Davis so, hey, does he really have to go there all the way? Listen to any of the Solid State recordings of the TJML BB and you cant help noticing how much exploring RD does. No arranger would sit and write all that but the ensemble passages are all solid, written out working basslines for the horns!
Having a look at some of my own charts There are places where the bassist would definitely think, "I could make a better line!" but These are all related to getting the right note in the bass for the horn structure. I checked! Comprimises, we all make them even if we dont know how to spell them.
FC