Big Band or Community Orchestra?

[TroyK]

I've decided to spend a year in either a big band or a community orchestra. I believe that either will force me to get my reading together, play some set parts and clean up some technique vs improvising my way through combo jazz, which is 99.9% of what I do now. I get asked to join a variety of one or the other virtually every month, so there are plenty of good options for me.

I will ask my teacher what he things might be better for me and of course, I'll consider time, location and who I feel like I would enjoy spending more time with. All that, not withstanding, however, I'd to see your opinions about which might be more beneficial.

Troy

[Sam Sherry]

In many respects, reading a big-band book is the opposite of playing an orchestral composition. Almost all big band bass charts are written by people who aren't bassists. This means that you, the bassist, usually know more about how to play a grooving, driving bass part then the person who wrote the chart does. This plays out in two ways:

1) "I Didn't Really Mean It" -- Most of the time when you see a written-out quarter-note part in a big band chart it's a dim reflection of what the composer/arranger would "most deeply wish for." A lot of the time they're just saying, "Make a great-sounding quarter-note noise here" when it looks like they're saying, "Play G-Gb-F-E." Figuring out where the written part is "suggested" and where it's "required" (while sight-reading the part) takes practice.

2) "Oh You Know What I Mean" -- The converse is also true all too often. Many arrangers tend not to cue the bassist about band hits. Sometimes playing the unwritten hits helps the band groove. Figuring out where the band is going even though the chart is blank (while sight-reading) takes practice.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll have a good time and a growth experience in either spot, Troy.

[clink]

When I was in school, way back in the 80's I played in both so I can say they both have their place.

After many years off, I began playing in big bands again because I love the music. It's all about playing the music you love.

Sam is right about the basslines in big band charts. It never ceases to make me grin when I play a long chart with every note written and then see a short section with a notation:
AS IS!!!!

[Rob Hunter]

Originally Posted by clink

It's all about playing the music you love.

This is why I play in a big band! Sure, most big band music wasn't written by bass players, but neither was the bulk of what you'd play in a community orchestra. While I've dabbled with the latter, one minor thing that keeps me returning to the big band is that I'm always playing. I never have to take a 16-bar rest.

Mind you, if you want to improve your arco skills, you know where you have to go. Can't you do a little of both?

[clink]

Originally Posted by Rob Hunter

Mind you, if you want to improve your arco skills, you know where you have to go. Can't you do a little of both?

I use my Arco skills everytime I play with the band.
Arco:
"The long note at the end...."

or is Arco the stick?



Well it does have a bend in it......

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by Rob Hunter

Mind you, if you want to improve your arco skills, you know where you have to go. Can't you do a little of both?

It's not practical for me to try to do both this year. I play a lot of small group jazz and stay really busy. I'm clearing one of my entanglements off my plate to make way for a few things this year and I've got room for one or the other. If I do orchestra now, I'm sure I'll do big band some other time, because I get asked to play big band a lot. But, I can't do both this year.

I'm not sure that I LOVE either type of music. I love hard bop in a small formerly smokey room. I think that I would like both.

I don't really have a connection to orchestra music, so I'm a little neutral on it. If I go that way, I may find that I love it or I may not make a connection with it. I doubt somewhat that I will LOVE big band, but it is closer to what is on my turntable at any given moment. It also puts me in front of a bunch of potential employers (horn players), but my goal here is really development as a musician.

Based on what you guys are saying, big band is likely to require only marginally more dicipline than what I'm playing now, which is kind of nudging me to an orchestra. I'll keep listening and will discuss with my teacher when I see him as well.

Thanks, keep it coming.

Troy

[Damon Rondeau]

A bit of sidetracking: anyone in Canuckistan (or elsewhere) catch Joni Mitchell's induction Sunday night into the Canadian songwriter's hall of fame? I didn't catch it on the tube but caught a bunch of it on the radio the next day. The big band behind Michael Buble rocked and swung so hard I had to stop doing the dishes and listen, totally riveted. The bass player sounded awesome (thank you, modern amplification) and was pretty much perfect. Who was it?

I play small combo stuff and I'd love to do what that guy was doing. One thing I noted was he played a LOT fewer notes than I would have and his riddim was simple but oh so perfect.

[Michael Case]

I did some time with a community orchestra and a big band. They are both fun, but I think the biggest thril for me was being in a bass section. When several basses play a note together there is nothing like it the world, WOW! I'm actually considering a community orchestra again because it's a chance to play something WAY beyond what I normally do.

Either way have fun,
Mike

[Uncletoad]

I'm impressed that you have the chops to consider both.

I don't. I wish I did.

I'd do all of it.

I'd start with the hardest leap. You'll learn the most even if it is "I really do hate this".

I wouldn't worry about the horn player gigs. They don't pay all that good anyhow and you have to put up with their bulls....

Besides, you've got the goods, they'll find you.

[TroyK]

I NEVER said that I had the chops for both. Each will be out of my comfort zone. Orchestra will be further out and if I could do it, I would probably gain more from having done so.

Neither feels out of reach for me, though, just out of my comfort zone.

-tk

[Michael Case]

Personally I'd go for the community orchestra. I spend so much time (as I'm sure most of us do) practicing with the bow and it's great to play music that requires that skill. It makes practicing arco a whole new experience (at least for a jazzer like me).

[musicman5string]

Can't you do both?

[isolated]

Originally Posted by clink

Arco:
"The long note at the end...."

or is Arco the stick?

To the best of my memory, Arco was a gas station.

My vote would be for you to do the orchestra. You'll get a whole different set of skills together that big band just ain't gonna give you. Playing in tune with a bunch of other bass players is a bitch at first, but there's no faster way to get the intonation happening. Plus there's the "not falling asleep during the eight pages of rests" part, which was invaluable for me.
Seriously, as a bass player, you don't get much more out of being in a big band (as opposed to playing in a smaller group) than working on your reading, which you can do (with much harder parts) in an orchestra.

But all this is just my opinion....

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

Can't you do both?

I really can't. I spend most all of my available time playing jazz. I much prefer to play in club groups than big band. I much prefer to listen to combos rather than big bands. I quit a band today that took a lot of my time, which opens up the opportunity for something else, but I can't squeeze both in.

I'm pretty convinced on the orchestra at this point. I appreciate everyone's feedback. Still going to talk to my teacher and then I'll need to approach a few of the community orchestras and see which of them are approachable, when and where they rehearse, etc.

Hey, no amp required!!!! :-)

[thomasrhoward]

I just joined a community orchestra (it's actually one that my company sponsors) for much the same reason. I've only taken up DB in the last year and am trying to focus on jazz after having played rock BG for 25 years.

Even though orchestra is not my goal, it has provided a new focus to my practice sessions. And I am enjoying it much more than I thought I would.

-tom
columbus, oh

[Stan Haskins]

Community Orchestras can be a great experience, depending largely on the conductor . . . I'm happy I found a good one . . .

[MartinT]

I'll chime in. I play in both a community orchestra and a big band. Everything posted heretofore is dead on as far as the experiences and learnings in both settings go. If I HAD to make a choice, I'd go for the orchestra. Not that I don't like the big band (to the contrary..) but I feel my technique (especially bowing and intonation) get a much better workout in the bass section. Additionally, there's an awful lot of musicianship that one picks up in an orchestra playing classical or modern 'serious' music that's very applicable to other settings. I love the discussion on the big band bass charts. In many cases, the written bass line is nothing but awkwardly linked apreggiated chords. The ones I like best at least have the chord progression included so that you can make a more fluid bassline, but they're rather rare.

And last but not least, in an orchestra bass section you can always blame your fellow bassists....

Martin

[clink]

I played with a big band last night in a room with horrible acoustics.
None of us sounded very good, but my bass just wouldn't cooperate. Because of this I just couldn't get into it. I played the charts EXACTLY as written.

At break, the drummer and leader complained that I wasn't swinging. Eventually he got around to saying that on a two beat feel, I was just playing TWO BEAT.
After telling him I was just playing the ink he said, "Don't do that, those lines don't swing." "Mix it up, add a fill or something to push the band."

That was the best example of how lame some of the basslines are in big band charts.

[lloccmttocs]

IMO go for the orchestra. I'm in 4 orchestra, (two smaller orchestras two really large orchestras) and a jazz band. Although the jazz band is a lot of fun, I still pick my orchestras over jazz band. I have learned so much in a small amount of time due to embersing myself in envirnments which I was uncomfterble in and unable to play the music. The jazz music I play to a certain extent, kind of bores me. I hate the fact that if I miss a note on a walking bass line, it really is hard to tell. I was told that the walking quarter note lines I have, the important part was that each quarter was even, which was more important to the pitch. Like said before, it's really nice to have a section. And if you are section leader it's empowering. Or If your last bassist you have 2 or more bassists to learn from and ask questions. It's alot of fun. So I vote for Orchestra.

[musicman5string]

I think it would be nice if you could find a big band that would be willing to do some original charts that you arranged.

Because arranging for a big band is a huge learning experience that is super beneficial to getting the "big picture" regarding harmonies, horn parts, melodies, how the bass parts fit, etc. etc.






.........Maybe you could do an arrangement of "Donna Lee" for big band and play the melody with the bow, that way you're getting your "bow workout" and playing in a big band.

Or you could arrange "Giant Steps" where you play Coltrane's solo with the bow and then harmonize each 8th note for the horns.