Bill Evans Autumn Leaves

monkmonk · #1 12-08-2007, 10:58 PM

Hi All-
I was wondering if anyone has an accurate rhythmic concept for the Bill Evans intro to Autumn Leaves. The one off Portrait in Jazz.
I just can't figure out what happens in the second 4 bars of the intro, do they switch for 3/4 with 4:3? It's confusing because it sounds like the bass should be the down beat, but I don't think it is.
I think I have the first four bars, it's just the second four that I can't feel or write accurately.
Thanks

cdrbass · #2 12-09-2007, 05:54 PM

I seem to remember it being a figure based on 6:4. Quarter note triplets. Evans plays x23 45x. Correct me if I'm wrong...

jazz bass guy · #3 12-09-2007, 09:14 PM

In the first four bars the bass plays on 2 and 4. The second four bars, the bass plays on the "and" of beat one and again on beat 3.

I recommend that you get a good bass teacher who will help you with stuff like that.

monkmonk · #4 12-10-2007, 10:54 AM

Thanks for the input folks, I realize I didn't have the first four right after all. I still don't have it quite yet, but in te first four bill phrases in 3/4 against the scott and pauls 4/4. I'm still trying to figure out if the first rh piano figure is the downbeat or not.
as far as the 2nd four is concerned I think I figured the bill has a 5 note phrase in quarter note triplets against paul and scotts and of one and down of 3. However I'm not sure if the phrase ends on the trip of 4 or the down beat of the 8th measure.
Ken, thanks for the help and advice. Unfortunately I don't have a teacher right now, my first lesson starts at the end of this month, and I actually just moved to Japan so I'm still kinda finding some players in the area. If you know of any musicians in Osaka (Kobe, or Kyoto) let me know!

jazz bass guy · #5 12-10-2007, 02:24 PM

This is my take on the first 8 bars of Autumn Leaves. I just sketched the top line of the melody in and some stuff below, to give the rhythm. The bass and drum seem to kind of push beat 4 on the first 4 bars, to line up with Bill's line.
Phil, are you talking about another tune now?

Bruce Lindfield · #6 12-11-2007, 03:58 AM

What's that Mingus quote about making the simple complex and vice versa!!??

monkmonk · #7 12-11-2007, 06:21 AM

I just went to the music store and saw three different books with 3 transcriptions of the same tune, all had notated it differently. One had it as a 5 quarter note in the space of four feel. If that's what it is, I really need to shed that.

jazz bass guy · #8 12-11-2007, 10:57 AM

Y'know you guys should really not get carried away worrying about which way of notating the rhythms is the correct one. I am absolutely sure Bill Evans was not thinking about 5 over anything when he played that line. In fact, I was being too fussy by writing the bass line they way I did. In a silly effort to line up with the piano line on the paper, I copied the rhythm from the piano, but really it should have been written as two and four for the first two bars. There is no way I would have written it that way if I was doing an arrangement for a real band. Nobody wants to see that kind of complexity. I am sure when they talked about it (if they talked about it...) the idea was for the bass to play on 2 & 4 for that part. I urge you not to get caught up in the minutia of notation at the expense of getting the point.

I suspect that some of you haven't been doing transcriptions for very long. Let me give you one piece of advice, if I may. Because in real life musicians take liberties (the good ones do it lots) with rhythms, it is impractical to try to get the notation exact, and even if you do, it will in that case be impossible to read, and ultimately would miss the point. Far better to say something is eighth notes that "lay back" that to try to go in the direction of 5/11 or something totally silly. Try to get into the head of whomever was playing the thing in the first place and think nuance. Almost never do musicians actually conceive of what they are doing as 5 over......whatever. There are exceptions, but they are relatively rare. Anything like that would stand out like a sore thumb as sounding very odd.

Also, if you aren't sure of whether it is a pickup or a downbeat, then try counting it and see where you end up. I can assure you that in this version of Autumn Leaves, the first note is a downbeat. (OK, maybe he is pushing it by a 32nd note....)

The bottom line is that if you get distracted by the apparent complexity you will never get to the end of any transcription.

On the other hand, I think it is great that you are lifting tunes. Keep it up. That is how all of us have learned to play.

KL

PocketGroove82 · #9 12-11-2007, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazz bass guy

Nobody wants to see that kind of complexity. I am sure when they talked about it (if they talked about it...) the idea was for the bass to play on 2 & 4 for that part. I urge you not to get caught up in the minutia of notation at the expense of getting the point.

I agree with you, which makes me laugh because there as a transcription book by Phil Palombi called "Scoot LaFaro:15 solos from Sunday at the Village Vanguard and Waltz for Debby"...and let me tell ya, Phil Palombi transcribed ALL THE MUNTIA!

Over 50% of the 8th notes, you see arrows pointing to individual ones with words like "Flat", "Sharp", "Lay Back", "Straight" "Bill drops a beat"! I was amazed at the attention to detail he included. There was even one solo where you read, "Beer Bottle Breaks", and one bar later "Scott Laughs"!!!!!

cdrbass · #10 12-11-2007, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazz bass guy

Y'know you guys should really not get carried away worrying about which way of notating the rhythms is the correct one. I am absolutely sure Bill Evans was not thinking about 5 over anything when he played that line.

KL

I finally took the time to check out the recording. It seems he is playing a 5:4 rhythm in the second four bars. Years ago when I first lifted this, I didn't know how to count 5:4 as a polyrhythm, so I assumed it was 6:4. What he is doing is x2345 x2345 x2345. I really do think that Bill was trying for this. Think about the fact he recorded a tune later on called "Five" that was almost completely based on this rhythm. He was definitely thinking about it.

jazz bass guy · #11 12-11-2007, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdrbass

I finally took the time to check out the recording. It seems he is playing a 5:4 rhythm in the second four bars. Years ago when I first lifted this, I didn't know how to count 5:4 as a polyrhythm, so I assumed it was 6:4. What he is doing is x2345 x2345 x2345. I really do think that Bill was trying for this. Think about the fact he recorded a tune later on called "Five" that was almost completely based on this rhythm. He was definitely thinking about it.

Actually, I think you are right. It does sound like 5 over 4. I thought I knew it from memory, but having just listened to it, I stand corrected.