Books

[x3234x]

Hello, I am pretty new to upright bass.
I am looking for a teacher in my area as we speak.
But untill I find one, what are some good books to get me started?
The style I am most intrested in is Jazz, but I also I would like to learn classical.
I have read some stuff online about Rabbath and Simandl but then also read that this is a good book to use before either one of those
"George Vance's Progressive Repertoire for the Double Bass"
I know there has been other topics on these teachers, but what is the best to do.
Also anyother publications or DVDs, that I can add to my collection of referance?

Thanks

[hdiddy]

I'd just be patient wait til you get an instructor. Teachers can have different methods they use and certain ones they'll prefer. Anything you learn ahead of the teacher techniquewise might get in your way later on.

You're probably better off spending your time & money on jazz cd's and listening your ass off.

[x3234x]

Well I have talked to a couple of people around my area, I wasnt to impressed.
If I am going to be spending all that money, then I want to be impressed. I know some of the learning process gets boring as anything can when you get into details. All the teachers I have talked to on the phone are monotone. Is this typical of classical teachers? Not to sound racist either, but I would prefer a black jazz teacher, they just have that magic. Does anyone know of one in Southern California?

[Jeff Guevin]

Originally Posted by x3234x

Not to sound racist either, but I would prefer a black jazz teacher, they just have that magic.

I see no one wants to touch this one.

x3234x, unfortunately it is racist, even if you consider it to be a positive, and it's a silly and unfounded stereotype. I suggest you leave that consideration behind quickly, in this and all areas, and find yourself a good teacher, regardless of their race.

And I wouldn't suggest you base your judgment of a teacher on what you thought of their tone on the telephone. Get a recommendation and try one out. Switch if you're not happy.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by x3234x

Well I have talked to a couple of people around my area, I wasnt to impressed.
If I am going to be spending all that money, then I want to be impressed. I know some of the learning process gets boring as anything can when you get into details. All the teachers I have talked to on the phone are monotone. Is this typical of classical teachers? Not to sound racist either, but I would prefer a black jazz teacher, they just have that magic. Does anyone know of one in Southern California?

Mingus studied with Herman Rheimschagen of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, I don't think he worried about it much. The magic is up to you when you get on stage.
That said, you may want to ask around if John Clayton is taking students....

[philip sirois]

Originally Posted by x3234x

Not to sound racist either, but I would prefer a black jazz teacher, they just have that magic.

Oh it sound racist, cause it IS racist. The definition of racist.

[Michael Case]

The only way to feel out a teacher is in person, I'll go even further and say it takes at least 2-3 lessons before you really get a good sense of a teacher. As far as finding a good jazz teacher, go check out some live music. If you like the bassist ask if he teaches when the gig is over. That's a really easy way to search for a jazz teacher.

[stefaniw80401]

Originally Posted by x3234x

Not to sound racist either, but I would prefer a black jazz teacher, they just have that magic.

I want to support the concept of what x3234x is trying to convey here to us, and being brave enough (if not articulate enough) to say what he said. Yes, find a teacher/mentor that inspires you. Monotone? As a teacher myself, I put extra effort into being inspirational, upbeat and hip for my usually younger students (I'm 45). It's not easy.

As far as the concept of finding that cool black jazz bassist for a mentor. Go for it! I've mentioned to several folks in my orchestra that I think it would be cool to take bass lessons from an "experienced older person" like Itzhak Perlman (violin) or Luciano Pavrotti (voice) ... sort of like x3234x's idea. I got some interesting looks -- especially from the older folks in the orchestra. I'd learn to be more musical on my instrument if I could study with Itzhak or Luciano don't you think?

So to me, x3234x wasn't being racist perse', he was thinking spiritually. So best of luck to you x3234x in finding a music teacher that really inspires you!

[jsbarber]

Originally Posted by stefaniw80401

I've mentioned to several folks in my orchestra that I think it would be cool to take bass lessons from an "experienced older person" like Itzhak Perlman (violin) or Luciano Pavrotti (voice) ... sort of like x3234x's idea. I got some interesting looks -- especially from the older folks in the orchestra. I'd learn to be more musical on my instrument if I could study with Itzhak or Luciano don't you think?

So to me, x3234x wasn't being racist perse', he was thinking spiritually. So best of luck to you x3234x in finding a music teacher that really inspires you!

Perhaps a virtuoso musician could give you some good insights, but not because of their age. There are 25 year olds that might be just as helpful, or moreso, than the two musicians you mentioned. There is also the possibility that a virtuoso might look at you with a blank stare, not able to comprehend why you are such a muscial idiot. By that I mean that things may be obvious to them and they can't understand why you don't get it, or even what it is that you don't get. Teaching is a talent that is different than performing. It is quite possible that the musicians you mention really haven't done much teaching and wouldn't really have the skills to help you. (It is even less likely that they'd have the inclination, unless you are a promising prodigy.) Furthermore, does Luciano "Pavrotti" even speak english? I don't think he'd be all that much help to you if he doesn't, unless of course you speak Italian.

The comment made by x3234x is racist, there is no question of that. Don't let your fantasies of lessons with an "old" virtuoso cloud your judgement on this issue. And assuming that someone who is older can help you better than someone who is younger, is just another form of bigotry. There are 30 year olds who have 25 years of experience with their instrument. [In fact one of the great things about TBDB is that you don't necessarilly know who you're talking with. Sometimes I am surprised when I look at someone's profile, (after reading their posts or having interactions), to find out that he/she a high school student, given the maturity of the discussion.]

Jim

[stefaniw80401]

Originally Posted by jsbarber

Perhaps a virtuoso musician could give you some good insights, but not because of their age. There are 25 year olds that might be just as helpful, or moreso, than the two musicians you mentioned.
Jim

No ... a 25 year old simply will not do, no matter how "mature" or virtuousic they are. It's the musical wisdom that I (and I think x3234x) is/are looking for in a teacher/mentor. That's what you get with an experienced older player ... regardless of race. That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm supporting x3234x on.

Here's a question for TBDB. Edgar and Gary both show up on your door step for a week of one-on-one tutelage. But you can only keep one. Which one do you let in? The "wise owl" or the "vituosic youth"? For me, I think I'd let in the experienced "wise owl".

- Mark

[musicman5string]

Originally Posted by x3234x

\ Not to sound racist either, but I would prefer a black jazz teacher, they just have that magic.

Man......ok, well, let's start with this:

You are an idiot.

Do the world a favor and don't pursue music, at least not jazz.

On the other hand, can you imagine the reaction if he said "not to sound racist, but I want a white jazz teacher; they're more schooled" or something?

[Alex Spradling]

Originally Posted by stefaniw80401

Here's a question for TBDB. Edgar and Gary both show up on your door step for a week of one-on-one tutelage. But you can only keep one. Which one do you let in? The "wise owl" or the "vituosic youth"? For me, I think I'd let in the experienced "wise owl".

- Mark

I'd let them both in and take a lesson. I'd stick with the one that was better for me. But, most importantly, I wouldn't hang on the pre-supposition that age has anything to do with musical wisdom.

I study with two teachers. One is almost 70 and one is probably 26 at the oldest. You wouldn't believe how sage a 26 year old can be.

Saying age equates to musical wisdom is almost as lame as saying that skin color has some intangible power over musical integrity.

[stefaniw80401]

Originally Posted by Alex Spradling

Saying age equates to musical wisdom is almost as lame as saying that skin color has some intangible power over musical integrity.

Ummm...not nearly "almost" the same I think. I dunno ... I haven't met many sage 26 year olds. Good chops? -- maybe. Decent teacher? -- mmmm possibly. Sage? -- rare find.

[Alex Spradling]

Originally Posted by stefaniw80401

Ummm...not nearly "almost" the same I think. I dunno ... I haven't met many sage 26 year olds. Good chops? -- maybe. Decent teacher? -- mmmm possibly. Sage? -- rare find.

Sure its rare, but its there. And because of that, you shouldn't close any doors.

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by stefaniw80401

No ... a 25 year old simply will not do, no matter how "mature" or virtuousic they are. It's the musical wisdom that I (and I think x3234x) is/are looking for in a teacher/mentor. That's what you get with an experienced older player ... regardless of race. That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm supporting x3234x on.

Here's a question for TBDB. Edgar and Gary both show up on your door step for a week of one-on-one tutelage. But you can only keep one. Which one do you let in? The "wise owl" or the "vituosic youth"? For me, I think I'd let in the experienced "wise owl".

- Mark

Uh, no. You get musical wisdom from quality musical experience. I took lessons for over a year from a 45 year old player (ballparking -- maybe early 40's) and slightly less than a year with an approximately 25-26 year old teacher. The older teacher was educated as a classical musician (master's in classical DB) but he had done jazz on the side since he was approximately my age at the time (17.) The younger teacher had recently graduated with a Bachelor's from McGill University's jazz program.

Now, I can honestly say both of these teachers were absolutely invaluable to my playing, and my lessons with the more classical teacher definitely laid a foundation on which I could build a lot. I can't thank him enough...but when it came to jazz, the younger teacher outstripped him in every conceivable way, despite the fact that the older teacher had been playing the bass for about as long as the younger guy had been alive.

That said, while I got along well with the older teacher (great guy) I found it easier to relate to and understand the younger teacher simply due to the lessened age gap. It's not that he was dramatically less "schooled" either -- when I spent this past year at Humber, I found a lot of the teaching methods he used were being implemented here (he also spent a year at Humber before attending McGill.)

IMO, taking an older teacher simply based on the logic that age = wisdom and teaching ability is ridiculous and just as stupid as taking on a black jazz musician over a white musician because he has "the magic" (or a white musician over a black musician because they sound more "schooled," another absurd concept someone else mentioned earlier too.)

[jallenbass]

Originally Posted by stefaniw80401

Ummm...not nearly "almost" the same I think. I dunno ... I haven't met many sage 26 year olds. Good chops? -- maybe. Decent teacher? -- mmmm possibly. Sage? -- rare find.

IME, not as rare as you're making out to be.

[musicman5string]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

(or a white musician over a black musician because they sound more "schooled," another absurd concept someone else mentioned earlier too.)

I said that Aaron, as an example of a reverse racist comment and how stupid that would've sounded.

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by musicman5string

I said that Aaron, as an example of a reverse racist comment and how stupid that would've sounded.

I know -- you've got a lot more sense than to suggest that as a serious comment. Wasn't quite sure how to fit that understanding into my other post without making the longest run-on sentence in the world though .

[Alex Spradling]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

Uh, no. You get musical wisdom from quality musical experience. I took lessons for over a year from a 45 year old player (ballparking -- maybe early 40's) and slightly less than a year with an approximately 25-26 year old teacher. The older teacher was educated as a classical musician (master's in classical DB) but he had done jazz on the side since he was approximately my age at the time (17.) The younger teacher had recently graduated with a Bachelor's from McGill University's jazz program.

Now, I can honestly say both of these teachers were absolutely invaluable to my playing, and my lessons with the more classical teacher definitely laid a foundation on which I could build a lot. I can't thank him enough...but when it came to jazz, the younger teacher outstripped him in every conceivable way, despite the fact that the older teacher had been playing the bass for about as long as the younger guy had been alive.

That said, while I got along well with the older teacher (great guy) I found it easier to relate to and understand the younger teacher simply due to the lessened age gap. It's not that he was dramatically less "schooled" either -- when I spent this past year at Humber, I found a lot of the teaching methods he used were being implemented here (he also spent a year at Humber before attending McGill.)

IMO, taking an older teacher simply based on the logic that age = wisdom and teaching ability is ridiculous and just as stupid as taking on a black jazz musician over a white musician because he has "the magic" (or a white musician over a black musician because they sound more "schooled," another absurd concept someone else mentioned earlier too.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefaniw80401
Here's a question for TBDB. Edgar and Gary both show up on your door step for a week of one-on-one tutelage. But you can only keep one. Which one do you let in? The "wise owl" or the "vituosic youth"? For me, I think I'd let in the experienced "wise owl".

- Mark
"I'd let them both in and take a lesson. I'd stick with the one that was better for me. But, most importantly, I wouldn't hang on the pre-supposition that age has anything to do with musical wisdom.

I study with two teachers. One is almost 70 and one is probably 26 at the oldest. You wouldn't believe how sage a 26 year old can be.

Saying age equates to musical wisdom is almost as lame as saying that skin color has some intangible power over musical integrity."



COPY CAT!!!!

[musicman5string]

BTW, as far as age goes, you're only so "sage" as your experiences, and there are plenty of 20 somethings with a truckload of life and musical experiences. I myself am a 30 something with those credentials...and I think I'm a pretty damn good teacher, but I never teach above my knowledge....you know what I mean?
I can't tell you how many times I've had to "correct" jazz lines written out by some classical teacher for a bass student. I've also routinely sent students who are advancing really quickly in classical study to Linda McKnight, at my own loss of income. So what?
You have to be honest and have integrity.....and you also need to not have prejudice and narrow mindedness.

....and for God's sake: let's leave the color of one's skin to the media for pot stirring. We all breath music here.