broader beat

neroantico · #1 05-26-2009, 02:10 AM

Dear bassists,

I need some explanation; Not much time ago i was reading some posts about Mr Patitucci masterclass, his advise of making a broader beat is echoing in my brain without peace...

Sorry for my ignorance, but i have to ask...
Is it a strong statement of the beat? a shift on the beat ex playing little advance than your bandmates?

Please what is it and how to work it out!!! Don't let me die ignorant.

Thank you for your time.

Giovanni

JtheJazzMan · #2 05-26-2009, 02:33 AM

Well imagine walking up tempo, like 250-300bpm.

Do you count out every beat in your head? That seems a little excessive, try feeling the pulse every 2, 4 or 8 beats.

Someone said to me: "A solid house needs wide foundations"

neroantico · #3 05-26-2009, 03:03 AM

Thank you J

Ok this is a thing i usually do: count double for slow and halves for up tempo...

This take me in other lands..
I found that GaMaLa Taki is a great help while grooving odd meters. But i cannot use it yet for soloing , the gamalataki mantra is too strong over the musical thought...

...suggestions?

Thank you.

fingers · #4 05-26-2009, 07:46 AM

Are you thinking of the clinic at Gage's? I don't think that is what he is talking about. He is referring to time "so wide you can drive a truck through" in the part where he talks about what he call 'the non-negotiables'. To me that is more speaking about laying back on that beat, being simple yet confident, solid, the stability of your foundation... I don't think of it as a simple concept. I think it is actually that intangible of playing time. Shoot he uses Ray and Ron as examples if memory serves. If we could codify their thing there would be more guys like them out there.

neroantico · #5 05-26-2009, 09:42 AM

Yes sometime ago i was reading a post about the masterclass at Gage's.

I thought about it and came out with no sure answer...
I had the feeling of meaning playing on different places of the beat depending on what your bandmates are doing.

It is something i have yet to master. with a metronome first and with a real drummer after.
How you do it? Locking to a pattern on ride cymbal or h.hat, general pulse (if any)

(Sorry... i'm a compulsive asker)

Thank you Marc for your time.

Giovanni

David Kaczorowski · #6 05-27-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

Are you thinking of the clinic at Gage's? I don't think that is what he is talking about. He is referring to time "so wide you can drive a truck through" in the part where he talks about what he call 'the non-negotiables'. To me that is more speaking about laying back on that beat, being simple yet confident, solid, the stability of your foundation... I don't think of it as a simple concept. I think it is actually that intangible of playing time. Shoot he uses Ray and Ron as examples if memory serves. If we could codify their thing there would be more guys like them out there.

I wasn't there and I haven't read anything about it, but I would agree with Marc. A synonym for "broad" is wide. I've heard cats refer to Elvin Jones having a wide beat. I've also heard it called dirty, and "laying back on the beat." This would be in contrast to a drummer like Tony Williams who had a narrower sense of the beat, "clean," "down the middle."

ThomsonKneeland · #7 05-28-2009, 12:44 AM

I think Mr Kaczorowski says it best. But I differ on one degree...I dont think a wide beat is about laying back on the beat (though that can happen), but creating the broad fullness of the entire beat. It's a concept easier heard and seen in drummers. For example, to me, Jimmy Garrison always had a wide beat, but was always pushing the beat forward, especially on up tempos. Semantics on the hand, but in my experience, there's a fine line between being on "laying on the back of the beat" and simply dragging. In part, I think this sound results as a function of his hand plucking the attack with the response of the instrument as well as the tension of his strings.
And I think the biggest example is Elvin, as mentioned earlier. Impeccable time, but as a bass player, you can find many areas in his broad beat in which to place your initial attack. And the consistency of your initial timing coupled with the fullness of sustain, and a rock solid foundation creates that wide beat...
I think "wide beat" in another sense also references the microtiming of eighth notes and the resultant swing feel. For, with all due respect, one of my favorite bass players, Dave Holland, simply does not have that kind of swinging "wide beat" with attendant eighth notes in that pocket. His feel tends more to the straight 8th underpinning. But hey, the guy swings.
It's one of these things words won't get at...if you dont hear it, you don't hear it, but when you'll do, you'll know what it's about.
I also recommend checking out the older cats for this wide beat...check out Osie Johnson, Jo Jones, Sam Woodyard, and all the great rhythm, sections that worked with Ellington...
It's all about pocket!