Critique our playing! Pt.2!

[Beast]

Since I got such great advice from the last thread I started like this, I was hoping I would get results just as beneficial.

This is a video of my friend Ben and I playing "There Will Never Be Another You". One of the biggest pieces of advice that I worked on last time was working more with my forearm on creating a bigger and rounder sound. I truly do feel like I improved on this, but it didn't pick up much on the macbook mic. All in all, give me your harshest criticism!

The Video!

Thanks so much in advance you guys! I really value the advice.

[Square Bear]

my initial critique is that you should position the camera so that your left hand is visible! probably not what you were looking for though, so here's this...

pretty good sound, full and round. i know you said it was what you've been working on, and i did not see the first video for comparison, but i can tell you're focusing on it. the flipside is that i can tell you're focusing on it. in other words, i think the added effort causes the time to get a little fuzzy as a result. see if you can make a big sound happen as a result of just killin' rock-solid time. you may find that you can actually back off a bit with the right hand at that point. also, especially with no drummer, i like to feel the backbeat in a more pronounced way from the bass... don't know how to explain how to actually do it, but practicing daily with a metronome on 2 and 4 helps me find the right feel. well it did back when i was actually playing jazz, i've been focusing more on classical for a while. overall, your ideas are totally on the right track. give yourself and the listener a chance to breathe in your solos! some really solid ideas but not enough space to process them. you don't have to fill in all the space, instead let the space fill you. i'm really impressed that you're sharing this in general, it makes me feel a little bit bad that i'm not doing this sort of thing. kudos in a big way and keep it up!

[jazz+bass]

The very first thing that jumped out at me after listening to the entire video was the time issue. You guys slow way down throughout the performance. If you don't believe me, snap your fingers in time at the beginning, and then skip ahead. Almost by the time you stop walking, it has already slowed down a bunch. Again, if you listen to the time right before the bass solo, and then right after the bass solo, you'll realize that it has slowed even more.

I'm not saying that this is the biggest problem in the world, lots of professional musicians drag from time to time. For proof, put on Miles Davis' Seven Steps To Heaven and listen to the head in and the head out. But the real issue here is the lack of drive. It feels lazy almost. I don't know how long you've been playing double bass or how long you've been playing jazz, but it would always help to get more comfortable with your instrument.

One other quick thing about the time/feel/dragging, I knew this tune would drag right from the very start of the video, before anyone even played. It's all right there in the count off. When you count off a tune, don't just think "What speed should I play?" You have to hear the song in your head, and feel the groove of it. Then, once that groove is firmly established in you, you have to count off in such a way that your piano player feels that same groove just like you do. This is easier to learn by experiencing it rather than reading about it, but just another thing to think about.

[Beast]

Hmm, I see what you mean about the "groove" thing. Maybe the problem wasn't so much a technical one, like I don't have the endurance, but rather a stylistic one. I felt as if we started out way too fast, and both the piano player and I agreed that it sounded MUCH better at the tempo we ended up at than our initial tempo.

But! I will be working much more on maintaining a solid time; extra metronome work for me. Thanks guys! Keep it coming!

[j.stemmler]

if you want to really fatten up your sound, try bringing your right hand down (towards the bridge) right to the bottom of the fingerboard. it will add alot more punch to your sound. also, use the natural weight of your arm to pull on the strings, rather than relying on just your fingers.

[chicagodoubler]

1. When you go to "2" you lose the bounce entirely. Transcribe some Ray playing in "2" and you'll have a much better idea. I don't see your body moving at all. Please remember this was once popular dance music. If your body is stiff, your feel will be as well. Overall, I get the feeling from feel and vocabulary that neither of you have spent much time transcribing.

2. Your walking lines clash with the melody on the head, and rarely outline the chord changes properly. Refer to my comments on your first videos for suggestions on this. If you can't walk a chorus singing the head you just don't know the tune.

3. Are you studying with a teacher, or at least, going to hear live jazz played by pros regularly? Are you diligently listening to the big 3- Ray, Ron, and Paul? Jazz has as much to do with listening and transcribing as it does actually practicing it.

Did I mention transcription? I think you'd be shocked if you were to transcribe and play along with a recording of someone walking on this tune... you'd also learn more about line construction and feel than nearly any resource could offer you.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

1. When you go to "2" you lose the bounce entirely. Transcribe some Ray playing in "2" and you'll have a much better idea. I don't see your body moving at all. Please remember this was once popular dance music. If your body is stiff, your feel will be as well. Overall, I get the feeling from feel and vocabulary that neither of you have spent much time transcribing.

2. Your walking lines clash with the melody on the head, and rarely outline the chord changes properly. Refer to my comments on your first videos for suggestions on this. If you can't walk a chorus singing the head you just don't know the tune.

3. Are you studying with a teacher, or at least, going to hear live jazz played by pros regularly? Are you diligently listening to the big 3- Ray, Ron, and Paul? Jazz has as much to do with listening and transcribing as it does actually practicing it.

Did I mention transcription? I think you'd be shocked if you were to transcribe and play along with a recording of someone walking on this tune... you'd also learn more about line construction and feel than nearly any resource could offer you.

1. I noticed the drop of feeling at two, thanks for reinforcing it. I'm almost positive that he's pretty big on transcribing, but I myself just started.

2. Well thanks, I'm glad you told me that I did something wrong, but care to show me how to do it correctly by your standards? I don't mean to come off snarky, but I can't do much to correct it here unless I have examples. I know the tune quite well, I know it back and forth, in my sleep, the melody, the changes, everything.

3. I am studying with a teacher, and no, I'm not going out to see jazz pros play regularly, it's not an option for me at this moment.

4. I did transcribe a line to this tune actually, played along with it, and I found it relatively uninspiring. Here's the blasphemous part, it was a Paul Chambers line. I'll continue to transcribe this stuff, though.


Thanks for your time!

[Menacewarf]

I wouldn't bother, Beast, transcirbing something unless it thrills you. What's the point? Life is too short and their is too much great music out there.

Find a version of the tune where the bass kills and trancsibe that.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by Menacewarf

I wouldn't bother, Beast, transcirbing something unless it thrills you. What's the point? Life is too short and their is too much great music out there.

Find a version of the tune where the bass kills and trancsibe that.

Honestly, I gave it a shot because I had heard all about Paul Chambers' lines, and I thought it may at least be interesting to see what he's thinking. But it's not that he's not a fantastic bass player(That much is obvious), but rather that his art doesn't appeal to me.

That, and it was laying in my itunes!

Do you have any versions you find interesting that maybe I could check out?

[Menacewarf]

Not of that tune but I know if you check out the Legendary Stockholm Concert of Miles from 1960 and his **** with Wynton Kelly you'll get PC.

The point is when a bass player punches you in the gut and you can't recover, that's what you should transcribe.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Beast

2. Well thanks, I'm glad you told me that I did something wrong, but care to show me how to do it correctly by your standards? I don't mean to come off snarky, but I can't do much to correct it here unless I have examples. I know the tune quite well, I know it back and forth, in my sleep, the melody, the changes, everything.

You do come off sounding snarky. I agree with everything doubler says here. Your profile says you are 16. It is not possible to know a tune in your sleep at that age. Once you have played it 1000 times on a gig in every possible way then maybe.

Either way iTunes is a great tool. If you type in 'There Will Never Be Another You' you'll gets hundreds of hits. It is a really common standard. I suggest the Chet Baker to start. The line is very functionally strong and easy to hear. Then move to versions that stretch out more. Maybe Lester. Then Bud Powell. Then Sonny Rollins. Then Dave Liebman. Point is THAT is how you really learn a tune. Really dissect different peoples takes on it. Dissect it yourself and make it your own.

As far as tempo... no excuse for dragging. Your job is to stay solid and punch people in the gut with you time. Doesn't matter if it is 2, latin, afro-cuban, swing, or 7/4 funk.

You sound really good though man. Keep up that good work.

[chicagodoubler]

I agree with Marc like usual. No room for snark here. When you get a little older you'll find the standards I'm encouraging are much bigger than some silly online community. Walking lines should always compliment the melody/ soloist. Think about the outside lines like a Bach choral- a pair of melodic lines dancing together. The next time you're in Chicago come out to one of my gigs and I'll show you what I'm talking about.

Regarding knowing a tune... can you play it in all 12 keys? Really? In B? Can you play it on the piano? Can you sing a bassline while you play the melody and visa versa? Know the lyrics? Know the verse? Can you play it as a bossa? Do you know any reharmonizations?

Also, why is hearing pros not an option? There's gotta be a hotel gig in town with some heavy players or a coffee shop hang or something of that ilk. There is no replacement for seeing and hearing working professionals up close. This music is an art of sharing; the "hang" is one of the most important parts of our community, and is a humbling way to realize how much we all have to learn from one another.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

Think about the outside lines like a Bach choral- a pair of melodic lines dancing together.

That's one big concept that Patitucci is always talking about.

[Beast]

Well, I do truly apologize for the attitude! Sometimes things come off not really as intended on an online forum.

As far as knowing the tune, what is the gigantic importance of knowing a tune in all 12 keys? I just memorize the tune in roman numerals, so would you consider that just as good?

Singing and playing bassline/melody, that's something I'm actually going to give a shot! Thanks for that bit.

The Bach Chorale bit is a perfect analogy for me, that sunk right in! I was much more of a classically trained player before I picked up upright, so that makes complete sense to me.

So, with all the tempo comments, what are some new exercises I could use maybe to solidify my timing? The two that I've added to my list are "beats on 2 and 4" and another exercise subdividing one beat many different ways.

You know, I've really been trying my hardest to find a place that I can go regularly to see people play, but jazz isn't really present here in my town. San Diego is a good drive away, and the only jams and shows I hear of there are either too expensive, or on school nights. I'm still trying, though.

Chicagodoubler, no joke, I will be in Chicago sometime this year, either December or February to check out Northwestern and University of Chicago! Who knows, maybe it's not so far-fetched that you'll be able to show me a few things?

[Marc Piane]

Lotsa great jazz in Chitown. Make sure to get to Pete Miller's when you visit Northwestern. It is walking distance from campus. Give us a shout. We'll point you to something cool.

[Beast]

Originally Posted by fingers

Lotsa great jazz in Chitown. Make sure to get to Pete Miller's when you visit Northwestern. It is walking distance from campus. Give us a shout. We'll point you to something cool.

Good deal. I'll be sure to remember that. As it stands, I'll most likely be coming down in December. A little bit away, but not too much! I'm excited for it.

[chicagodoubler]

Beast, if you want to work professionally you need to be able to play any tune with lyrics in all 12 keys. Singers will call songs in A natural and weird stuff like that all the time, and these days, they've got 90% of the paying gigs. Since you've got a jam buddy, try taking a tune and going through the cycle of fifths playing a new key every chorus. With a tune like Cherokee this becomes quite an exercise of mental gymnastics.

Regarding 2 feel: There's no exercise in the world that will teach you how to play in 2 the right way. I'm personally not a huge advocate of using a metronome to practice jazz. Transcription and playing with/ listening to the real cats is a much quicker way to get an authentic feel. Be aware that there are deviations in the placement of the beats that the metronome simply cannot account for. When you get out into the professional world it becomes shockingly apparent which players have learned the tradition through recordings and which ones are b.s.ing their way through books and playalongs etc... How did PC, Ray, and Ron learn how to play jazz? If you want to sound like a pro, study like one!!!!

[Beast]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

Beast, if you want to work professionally you need to be able to play any tune with lyrics in all 12 keys. Singers will call songs in A natural and weird stuff like that all the time, and these days, they've got 90% of the paying gigs. Since you've got a jam buddy, try taking a tune and going through the cycle of fifths playing a new key every chorus. With a tune like Cherokee this becomes quite an exercise of mental gymnastics.

Regarding 2 feel: There's no exercise in the world that will teach you how to play in 2 the right way. I'm personally not a huge advocate of using a metronome to practice jazz. Transcription and playing with/ listening to the real cats is a much quicker way to get an authentic feel. Be aware that there are deviations in the placement of the beats that the metronome simply cannot account for. When you get out into the professional world it becomes shockingly apparent which players have learned the tradition through recordings and which ones are b.s.ing their way through books and playalongs etc... How did PC, Ray, and Ron learn how to play jazz? If you want to sound like a pro, study like one!!!!

Alright, I guess I will try the 12 keys thing. Jazz isn't what I want to make a living off of, but I have no intention of skimping out on learning because of that. It's a passion, and I'll do what I need to learn more.

Sounds good, I'll make sure transcription is part of my daily routine. I never thought of playing along with the recordings, I had always thought of it as just as an analyzing exercise. I'll give it a shot.

Thanks!

[MrSidecar]

...hi there,

I´d like to add little things to what all the others said.

Transcribing the big 3 is a must. You have to have some reference to build the basis for your own judgement.

And then you transcribe YOURSELF also, and use your judgement. There are obviously notes in your line that sound rather fishy, and hearing the greats in comparison might help you isolate what does not sound hip in your playing.

One of my teachers referred to this as "the personal ******** filter". Be very accurate in analyzing your playing, isolate each and every wonky note and put the finger on its wonkyness- what makes it sound bad? The melody, the chord, or the line itself? Lines have a tendency to, when it´s good, build themselves, and when it´s bad, be built solely by your motorics (as opposed to musical ideas). That means: A strong line sometimes seems to be so strong because any particular note in it calls for exactly the next note to come. And wonkyness in lines, on the other hand, is often the result of thoughtless motorics dircting the hand to some odd-sounding, but comfortable, thing.

And all this is mainly learned by listening to what others did before you.

Most of all, don´t stop. Never stop. Just go on practicing. That also helps.

Maybe I come to some other valuable insigths, I´ll post them then.

Best

Sidecar