Do you really need to learn and memorize licks?

osmarokuma · #1 11-19-2008, 07:55 PM

From all the teachers I have had they always tell me to memorize some licks, solos, melody...etc. Personally I dont think its such a great or mandatory idea, music is about being creative and even more so in jazz. I think that by learning licks and famous phrases one is not being creative but instead building the puzzle using the pieces which you have available. By limiting this you can build a puzzle AND the pieces yourself. Dont get me wrong, im not saying you shouldnt do this, but its way too thought off when learning jazz in my opinion. Look at beethoven he didnt hear licks so his compositions wer 100% unique from his creativity. Did early jazz musicians listen to licks or phrases of others either? They created their own style.

dannster · #2 11-19-2008, 08:07 PM

Beethoven didn't start gradually going deaf until in his early 20's.

Yes you should learn licks as well as improvise. It is all part of teaching your body, your subconscious, and your brain how to play and to recall in an instant. It is all connected.

"Did early jazz musicians listen to licks or phrases of others either?"

You bet they did.

Are you suggesting that instead everyone should start from zero without influence from anyone to develop individuality? Ridiculous!

Lesfunk · #3 11-19-2008, 08:10 PM

You can't have your own style until you have a style. The only way to have a style is to listen, learn and grow

L-A · #4 11-19-2008, 08:12 PM

Learn them. It's the best way of learning about the theory and the ideas behind them.

osmarokuma · #5 11-19-2008, 08:15 PM

yeah im not saying I havent learnd any licks or tunes... because I was taught to, but i just thought about this the other day. By learning and being influenced by other artists your own art will be altered, it wont be entirely yourself. Its great when you can play a small parker phrase in a solo but its just something I dont see as being so mandatory as it is seen today.

TomSauter · #6 11-19-2008, 10:22 PM

Unless you're incredibly talented and have a really great ear, you won't be able to just create much out of thin air. If you don't sit down and study what some other people have played, then you probably won't know how to navigate your way though the harmony of any jazz tunes. It's been my experience that the folks that think it's not creative to learn other people's music tend to play a nice mixture of nonsense and pentatonic finger-wiggling. Without a doubt Beethoven learned lots of other people's music, and the early jazz musicians influenced each other and had lots of melodic content from the melodies to tunes, and they knew the blues language too.

osmarokuma · #7 11-20-2008, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomSauter

Unless you're incredibly talented and have a really great ear, you won't be able to just sit create much out of thin air. If you don't sit down and study what some other people have played, then you probably won't know how to navigate your way though the harmony of any jazz tunes. It's been my experience that the folks that think it's not creative to learn other people's music tend to play a nice mixture of nonsense and pentatonic finger-wiggling. Without a doubt Beethoven learned lots of other people's music, and the early jazz musicians influenced each other and had lots of melodic content from the melodies to tunes, and they knew the blues language too.

well what you say can go both ways, because I have heard some people play solos and while they wer playing them I could recognize about 80% of the phrases used. Would you rather play a charlie parker solo or your solo?

TomSauter · #8 11-20-2008, 01:22 AM

I never said to make an entire solo out other people's licks, i said you have to learn other people's music to get a grasp on jazz language/harmony. And even if someone did play an entire charlie parker solo on a gig, that would be fine with me as long as they don't do it on every song or act like it's their own stuff. At least it's great material and it shows they're working on the music.

Haven't you ever heard a lick and liked it and wanted to learn it? You can be creative with someone else's material--there's all kinds of ways to make a lick work over different harmonies, or you can phrase it differently, or play a lick in 4/4 over a song in 3/4. The way different people use common material is part of what gives their solos a personal touch.

Bruce Lindfield · #9 11-20-2008, 01:32 AM

There's nothing new in music - it's all about putting bits that you like together!

There have been centuries of music-making and it's certain that somebody will have played every possible musical phrase by now!

Jazz is a language and has its own idioms - if you don't know those idioms then you are not speaking the language - nothing wrong with that - you don't have to play Jazz!

But the history of Jazz is about players trading licks, passing them on and reinventing them in your own playing. It was all about listening to other artists on the bandstand and taking the bits you liked and incoporating them in your playing.

Now we have recordings and can take our influences from an even wider reservoir - but if you're not listening to Jazz and speaking that language - fine, you're just not playing Jazz!

atheos · #10 11-20-2008, 01:58 AM

Beethoven didn't hear licks? ***? He did. And even if he didn't, he could READ them from other composers' scores.

Everybody has to have influences unless the music is either some artsy fartsy avant garde or free jazz

D.Don · #11 11-20-2008, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by osmarokuma

From all the teachers I have had they always tell me to memorize some licks, solos, melody...etc. Personally I dont think its such a great or mandatory idea, music is about being creative and even more so in jazz. I think that by learning licks and famous phrases one is not being creative but instead building the puzzle using the pieces which you have available. By limiting this you can build a puzzle AND the pieces yourself. Dont get me wrong, im not saying you shouldnt do this, but its way too thought off when learning jazz in my opinion. Look at beethoven he didnt hear licks so his compositions wer 100% unique from his creativity. Did early jazz musicians listen to licks or phrases of others either? They created their own style.

Learn as much as you can from as many sources you possibly can, then forget all about it ...

D.Don

RedCoatMonster · #12 11-20-2008, 02:12 AM

There is no argument in your statement. No ones style is 100% original, all musicians build off of everyone else. The end.

otis_thick · #13 11-20-2008, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedCoatMonster

There is no argument in your statement. No ones style is 100% original, all musicians build off of everyone else. The end.

There are only 12 notes (western) and various international scales. Over the thousands of years of music all combos most likely have been covered by plan or accident. BUT I have just recently recorded a pianist along with a 30 pc orchestra that performed the most dissonant recital piece I have ever heard. It called for the string section to be both in and out of tune. It worked in a Horror movie score sort of way. I assume because it was written and can be repeted it is a form of art but if I just throw a bunch of letters on a page will it make it a form of poetry because it was wrtten and can be repeted?

mcgarry · #14 11-20-2008, 04:38 AM

beethoven was influenced by mozart and studied with haydn,personally to be able to tap into the source of incredible creativity is invaluable,we are so lucky to have records of genius,by score or on cd or youtube,i just don't see how to purposefully not assimilate great musical ideas would be a positive, and its really really good fun

Bruce Lindfield · #15 11-20-2008, 04:55 AM

And Brahms blatantly copied Beethoven for his 1st Symphony and so on and so on...

mcgarry · #16 11-20-2008, 05:12 AM

take a human being ,a bass, place them in a musical vacuum,wait thirty years, what would you find when you returned, probably a partially eaten fingerboard, and a suit with f-hole lapels and a rather snazzy string tie

Pat Harris · #17 11-20-2008, 06:53 AM

If you think of music (specifically jazz) as a language, then yes, by all means you've got to use your ears and grab some ideas and licks from outside sources. The only way to learn a language is to speak it correctly and have a model for it. You can't learn it simply by reading it, you've got to "speak" it. Once you learn the language, you can put your own spin and personality into it. We all speak English, use words, but the way I order my words and ideas is different that they way you might even though it's the same language.

If you think about it in terms of something like painiting. To not borrow any musical ideas is like not borrowing any ideas or artistic concepts from the great masters. In a quest to be original you're missing a wealth of information or ideas that could be used for inspiration.

-Pat

Sam Sherry · #18 11-20-2008, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by osmarokuma

From all the teachers I have had they always tell me to memorize some licks, solos, melody...etc. I think that by learning licks and famous phrases one is not being creative but instead building the puzzle using the pieces which you have available.

Fascinating. All the bass guitarists (plus Bruce) pile in saying, "Wull yah."

Os, check this thread from last week for some differing perspective from the double bassists.

My two cents? Practice whatever helps. Study the masters. Don't just learn the notes the played (i.e. the lick); hear why those notes were choices that were musical in that particular musical context. Don't play somebody else's **** in public -- you could be playing music instead!

Paul Warburton · #19 11-20-2008, 06:58 AM

We build on the shoulders of the greats that went before us.

Bruce Lindfield · #20 11-20-2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Fascinating. All the bass guitarists (plus Bruce) pile in saying, "Wull yah."

Os, check this thread from last week for some differing perspective from the double bassists.

My two cents? Practice whatever helps. Study the masters. Don't just learn the notes the played (i.e. the lick); hear why those notes were choices that were musical in that particular musical context. Don't play somebody else's **** in public -- you could be playing music instead!

Well that's exactly what I think - it's not a good idea to play licks or cut and paste - but that wasn't the question asked!!

So - there's nothing wrong with studying licks and seeing how the greats built their solos from 'Jazzy' phrases...?

So the question was about learning - not what you actually play - if the question was - should you play licks in your solos, then I would have given a very different answer!!

I think you have to answer the question under discussion - not just cut and paste your normal response...