Doubling in Cramped Spaces

[Gambaholic]

Originally Posted by Wilbyman

+1, that looks really scary!!!

Will

Well doing a search here on Talkbass I found this post by Bob Branstetter. He has used this stand in the past. Here is what he had to say.

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

Yes, that's the beauty of the Redi-Rest. The socket has a fixed postion to hold the bass self supporting, and just move the bass out of that postion and it allows you to play any the normal positions with the bass leaning toward the player. The endpin is part of the stand, so you don't even use your normal endpin rod. It requires an endpin with the same size rod as the Kay/Englehardt. They included a socket with the stand to go on basses that had a different size rod. Here's another shot of the Redi-Rest attached to a bass free standing. I had one of these in the 1960's when I was playing shows that required doubling on Plank. It worked great.

[brandonwong]

I have used K&M stands for doubling gigs and for many tunes that requires a switch of electric bass/upright bass in two or even one bar.
I adjust my double bass in a position that is stable yet leaned against one side so it feels very much like my normal playing position.
Here is an example... not a really tight spaced one but you get the idea.

[tornadobass]

My one time with doubling in a pit setting used an Ingles stand for the big old American Standard upright and a regular guitar stand for my electric.

After that time, I didn't have to double, but came back to the pit with my Azola BugBass instead of the American Standard. The directors appreciated the big sound and small footprint of the 'Bug.

[gnergaard]

Originally Posted by David Kaczorowski

I hate doubling and avoid it as much as possible. Besides, if I'm playing two instruments I want to be paid like it. The wind instruments usually are.

Man what are you guys, union jobbers exclusively? Actually, I sincerely hope that you are. Unions are a great concept that is slowly disappearing from this industry... but I'm coming way too close to breaking the "politics" rule here...

I don't mean to single David out here- this response is to many on this thread who voice a distaste for doubling. I humbly disagree.
I've certainly found a solution for doubling that works for me and the people I play with/for are happy with the wider range of possibilities that I can offer. Only rarely does doubling ever become a Technical Problem (i.e. a problem with the P.A.). More importantly, in most cases I feel that the music benefits from my ability to 'change color' for different songs. I too have on occasion played upright with an electric bass slung over my back as one poster mentioned earlier and though I don't think this is often necessary, if a particular piece of music came up again where this was the appropriate thing to do, I'd do it again. For the music- period. Really, my time and skill are what I feel I need to be paid for, and once I lug the upright out an electric bass is hardly much extra bother.
As for an opinion on the Reddi Stand I'm gonna ask my luthier about the stress on the block. I'm suspecting that there probably isn't much difference between the stress that the stand puts on this area and the stress that I'd put on the same area by holding the bass in playing position with the usual peg in place. Same angle, same weight, same forces apply- right? Whether or not the bass will be knocked over is a different concern. Seems to me that we all play a large, cumbersome, fragile instrument and that you have to be careful no matter what.

[winston]

I've played on some tiny stages but it's been years since I did a pit gig. For doubling gigs I use an Ingles stand and keep my BG in a quality gig bag (Levy's or Undercover) leaning against my amp when I'm not playing it. Ingles may not be best for super quick changes but IME it's much safer than having the bass on the floor or a chair that can slide away.

Redi-Rest looks intriguing...but I can't help but thinking it'd rip out the endpin block if too much force was applied. Yes, the block is meant to withstand some force but generally you're supporting some of the bass' weight with your knee, hip, belly, or shoulder depending on FB position.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by gnergaard

I too have on occasion played upright with an electric bass slung over my back as one poster mentioned earlier and though I don't think this is often necessary, if a particular piece of music came up again where this was the appropriate thing to do, I'd do it again. For the music- period.

While I'm not wild about doing this Greg has a great point. Do it for the music. If it is the sound you hear in your head then go for it. The lugging extra gear stuff is minimal since a chop can just be slung over your back.

[David Kaczorowski]

I was never in the union, it's useless around here. As for doing it for the music, that's a great ideal, and if I had been in situations I felt that way about I'm sure I'd be into it. But the fact is I used to play a lot of gigs not for the music, but the money. I don't think anyone plays professional pit gigs for the music.

There are more problems with doubling than just the space issue. The time it takes to change between instruments can be a huge problem no matter how you do it. Often a show is staged and rehearsed extensively long before any musicians besides the music director are brought in. The full orchestra will rehearse once or twice and then it's on to dress rehearsal and previews. Sometimes there is little or no dialogue between numbers and the time it takes to put one instrument down and pick up another, no matter how quickly, is too long, so something has to give. The director is not about to change the staging so the music gives.

[David Kaczorowski]

To continue (I was interrupted while typing my last post)... Another scenario would be a get a call from Bandleader X, it's a jazz gig, but he wants me to bring my electric bass too because he has a few tunes he likes to do sometimes that the electric would be good for. Now why shouldn't I get paid more? If I'm going to bring out more equipment, spend more time setting up and breaking down, and have the hassle of switching in the middle of a set (thought admittedly it only involves putting one down and picking up the other and hitting a switch, why shouldn't I get paid more than if all I was taking out was one instrument. If it was a situation I was really into playing I'd probably do it, but all to often it's not like that. So if it was a something I wasn't into, or the money wasn't right, I'd turn the gig down. I'd probably get another call for that night, and if not, I'd enjoy the night off.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by David Kaczorowski

To continue (I was interrupted while typing my last post)... Another scenario would be a get a call from Bandleader X, it's a jazz gig, but he wants me to bring my electric bass too because he has a few tunes he likes to do sometimes that the electric would be good for. Now why shouldn't I get paid more? If I'm going to bring out more equipment, spend more time setting up and breaking down, and have the hassle of switching in the middle of a set (thought admittedly it only involves putting one down and picking up the other and hitting a switch, why shouldn't I get paid more than if all I was taking out was one instrument. If it was a situation I was really into playing I'd probably do it, but all to often it's not like that. So if it was a something I wasn't into, or the money wasn't right, I'd turn the gig down. I'd probably get another call for that night, and if not, I'd enjoy the night off.

Try pleading that case to a drummer. With both basses in tow I can still set up in half the time of any drummer.

I can understand that argument if it is just a jobbing date (which I usually avoid anyway unless I need the cash) I suppose but most bandleaders I know would just call somebody else if I pulled that.

We picked the bass. If you don't want to double that cool. Asking to get paid double would be viewed as pulling a prima donna with the leaders that hire me.

[Mark Perna]

Originally Posted by David Kaczorowski

To continue (I was interrupted while typing my last post)... Another scenario would be a get a call from Bandleader X, it's a jazz gig, but he wants me to bring my electric bass too because he has a few tunes he likes to do sometimes that the electric would be good for. Now why shouldn't I get paid more?

This is a really good point. It's also not like we play an instrument such as saxophone either where the tenor player throws his soprano over his shoulder and he's instant doubler with little effort. Either EB or UB setups require a pretty good haul of equipment. And even if you have a decent doubling rig, it's still going to be a musical compromise. Does anyone have a doubling rig that they would use for both UB and EB as a first choice even if they weren't doubling? I've fine tuned both rigs so much that I really can't use EB with the UB set up at all and the UB with the EB setup results in a major loss of fidelity (at least to my ears) for the UB. I don't think I'm servicing the music with that kind of a compromise.

To be fair, I've been playing and have been known for my upright playing for so long that I get very few calls for EB (and I turn most of those down) anymore and haven't had a call to double in YEARS. The upshot is I haven't actually made much of an effort to get a single rig that works for both.

mark

[David Kaczorowski]

Originally Posted by fingers

Try pleading that case to a drummer. With both basses in tow I can still set up in half the time of any drummer.

I can understand that argument if it is just a jobbing date (which I usually avoid anyway unless I need the cash) I suppose but most bandleaders I know would just call somebody else if I pulled that.

We picked the bass. If you don't want to double that cool. Asking to get paid double would be viewed as pulling a prima donna with the leaders that hire me.

It's a negotiating tool. I wouldn't expect to get paid double, but something to make it worth my while. That might vary depending on the gig and situation. Who's calling? Am I the first call? Who recomended me? Is it a one nighter or something longer? When I was freelancing all the time I knew what I brought to a job: professionalism, the ability to sight-read really well, the ability to read charts really well, to be a sensitive accompanist, or whatever the gig called for, need no rehearsal. That's why I was called. If there was somebody else who possessed the same qualities or was willing to do more for less that's their business. If someone didn't want to hire me for what I thought I was worth, that was fine too.

As for the drummer thing you mentioned, maybe all of your gigs are situations where everyone makes the same bread, but that isn't always the case for a lot of people. Trust me when I tell you there are a lot of gigs where everyone in the group is making something different.

[Marc Piane]

My experience has always been "Are you free on X date for X dollars." Yes or no. There is no room for negotiation.

There is a plethora of really good bass players here in Chicago. Unless the leader is out of options he'll just call somebody else. There might be a few players that can do that I guess but only a select few... and I ain't one of 'em.

Unfortunately, IME, it is usually the singer or the ringer horn player that takes home a bigger check. Usually not the person with the most gear. Rarely the bass player.

[David Kaczorowski]

Marc, sometimes there is no negotiating, but it can't hurt to try. Anything can be a negotiating tool. Driving distance is a good one, or the number of sets/duration of the gig. For example, why take a 4 hour gig, taking out two instruments, that's a long drive for the same money as a 2 or 3 hour gig, one bass, nearby? Sometimes the guy calling has somebody else to call, sometimes he doesn't. If he has other people on his list, obviously he called you ahead of them for a reason. Take advantage of it. When cats in the band take home varying amounts of money it's because they command a certain fee and negotiated. I really doubt Philadelphia is any different than Chicago, it might even be more competitive.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by fingers

My experience has always been "Are you free on X date for X dollars." Yes or no. There is no room for negotiation.

Sort of. If they ask me to drive 30 minutes and play for 6 hours for $100 my answer is "I'm free on that date but not at that price, you should find someone else, would you like some numbers" That either buys me a proper wage or gets me out of a ******** gig.

[Marc Piane]

I'm not comparing markets (Chicago vs Philly) and I think it can hurt to try if it is not done right. The way you conduct yourself in every aspect of your professional dealings gives the leader an impression. David, I'm sure you are doing it in a professional way. Younger players that are reading this might get the wrong impression though.

What I have found that works better than negotiating is setting a 'minimum wage' in your head. For example my minimum for a Friday night is $100 for a club date and $250 for private gig with a reasonable timetable. If it comes in under that I "look for my calendar" while I find out some deets. If it is a cool gig or with a leader that regularly hires me then I'll bend. If it sounds like more trouble than it's worth I'd rather stay home and spend the evening with the wife and kids.

[David Kaczorowski]

Exactly, it's important to always conduct yourself professionally, not like a prima donna rock star.

[Mike D.]

It's kinda of a drag when we gotta double, but I think it's rewarding and a whole of fun to play the 2 basses in one show.
Ideally, I would have space to put bass on the floor, but this isn't always possible.
It also depends on how quick the director is going to count the next tune after finishing the last (when making a switch).
That's why it helps to talk to the director in rehearsal and/or before the show to remind them of the difficulty of switching instruments (especially when one of the instruments is taller than you!) Sometimes you can negotiate a set-list where you can play a few 'electric tunes' in a row and a few 'upright tunes' in a row, but this isn't always the most ideal when the director has contrasting textures from tune to tune in mind.
In that case I sling the electric over my shoulder while playing upright, and sort-of lean the upright on my shoulder while I play electric. This helps in cramped places too. It's not the most comfortable way to play both basses but it works well, especially if you just concentrate on the music and forget the 'awkward pose' you might be in.
One word of advice for the above method: watch the axis of your electric bass' neck and head-stock as you body moves into the higher registers of the upright. Also, make sure the path the electric bass' neck is clear when pulling it from your back to front. I hate smashing my bass' headstock onto music stands, ceilings, cymbals, etc.
One other topic for cramped places would be the use of the bow and not hitting the trombone players head, jabbing the trumpet player in the gut, or smashing the bow in a music stand or a cymbal! this can be difficult too.