Eek! I'm behind the beat

[davidAaronCarte]

So I play a little behind the beat, which is sin
It's barely noticable (the only person to call me out on it is Lorne Lofsky - you Toronto folk know him for sure) - but its there and it's driving me crazy
My bass is a bit of a slow-speaker, which isn't make it any easier
Everything I practice is with a metronome
I just happen to feel the beat a tiny bit behind - I don't slow down thankfully
Is there anything I can practice to try and notch it forward right in with the beat?

[bassteban]

Shoot for ahead(or way ahead)of the beat maybe? I tend to play ahead so I won't claim much in the way of ability here but a great player should be able to *go either way*, IMO.

[deego]

I have had this problem too. What I used to work a bunch was 16th patterns while doing scales. Starting with straight 16th's I'd move through varied patterns, like taking away the down beat 16th etc. I've found that this sort of phasing can put you more on top of the beat. Just always practice with a metronome. IME, habit breaking is the worst!

[pbagley]

It all depends on the feel you want to produce. For BlueGrass the bass needs to (usually) be on the front edge of the beat. For Blues you may want to be back on the beat somewhat. Some electric players will demand the bass must always be behind the beat for pop/rock. For example, listen carefully to "Beginnings" from Chicago Transit Authority. I'd never noticed how far back that bass part is over many years of hearing the song, but when learning the part I discovered that I am not able to play that far behind the drummer.

It all comes down to feel and groove. If you are carying a groove, then it's all good.

Good luck,

- Paul

[Ed Fuqua]

Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMlD_9Zuc9k

A couple of things - Jimmy, in the video, talks about Dex playing behind the beat to get that feeling of "heaviness"; what Lorne may actually be addressing is not so much "time" as it is "approach". If you approach the feel with the idea of moving the harmony forward, with a "lightness" of feel and touch; my teacher Joe talks about dribbling a basketball as an analogy - you want the feeling of the ball's rebound, that quality of coming back up off the ground as opposed to the feeling that you're trying to drive the ball INTO the ground. Remember, the job of the rhythm section is propulsion, not just support.
But he may also be talking about something else Jimmy sort of alludes to in the video; you may be "fooling" the rest of the rhythm section as to where you're actually feeling the time; you may not be dragging personally, but if the drummer comes back to line up with you behind the beat, all of a sudden the "attack" of the beat is centered in a new (and later) timestream. OK for an effect, but not really for a rhythm section.

The second thing is, when you say "Everything I practice is with a metronome", what do you mean by "everything"?


For me, as an accompanist I try to keep my attack right in the center of the beat.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by pbagley

It all depends on the feel you want to produce.

I wonder what we can deduce about that from the title of this sub forum?

[Marc Piane]

I guess I don't worry about playing ahead or behind. I don't even really think about it. The main thing to me is that music is moving forward (if of course tempo stuff is not a issue). All depends on everyone else in he band too. I just think about putting it right down the middle then adjust based on what I hear around me.

[pbagley]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I wonder what we can deduce about that from the title of this sub forum?

I deduce nothing from the title of this sub forum. Jazz has a certain free expression attitude embedded into the definition. Therefore it is up to the player to express their personal voice using feel, and perhaps even notes, within the context of the music.

- Paul

[Marc Piane]

Jazz has a definition now? Do tell.

[jaywa]

To the OP, I appreciate your concern but my first question would be, when you play, are people moving? If so, then you're doing OK. Some of the best grooves are created by that very subtle push and pull between bass and drums (and other rhythm instruments) that can't always be quantized down to a metronome.

As far as "Beginnings" and Chicago in general, almost any bassist is going to sound "behind" on that material because their drummer plays as on-top of the beat as you can be without rushing. I play in a band that covers several Chicago tunes and those are the ones I'm always the least comfortable on cause the drummer just takes off.

[Ed Fuqua]

For BlueGrass....
For Blues...
...for pop/rock.
listen carefully to ...Chicago Transit Authority.

Originally Posted by pbagley

I deduce nothing from the title of this sub forum.

That much is obvious...

[wideload]

Find a mariachi band to play with...

[Ed Fuqua]

I got fired for using Trane changes in LA CUCARACHA...

[Kevin Hsieh]

I didn't read the whole thread but i read the OP. IMO, there isn't anything wrong with playing behind the beat, as long as you know exactly where the beat truly is. If that is the feel that you as a player are into, then don't try to fight it. For example, my drummer and I have slightly different time feels, my attack is always slightly behind his. But we are always communicating and we know exactly where the actual beat is, so the feel is cool.

If you really want to develop/modify your beat, I recommend playing with the metronome at a walking pace. Then try to play for a while right on the beat. Then focus on playing as far behind teh beat as you can without messing up the time. And then do the same thing playing on top. That helped me establish where my idea of the beat is.

Hope that helps. I'm just learning too, so I'm by no means someone to take seriously.

[davidAaronCarte]

Ed - your post was really helpful, I love Jimmy
I kind of smacked myself on the forehead when I read propulsion - I've been really self-conscious about my tuning the last couple of days and I now realize my perspective got shifted way too inward
When I say I practice everything with a metronome, I really do mean it
My long tones, intonation, phrasing, ideas, tunes - all of it's with the metronome, either on every beat, 2 + 4 or just 2 or 4

Jaywa - Usually the band grooves fine, but every once in awihle (like yesterday) it turns into a trainwreck. I'm definately not going to say everything stems from me playing behind the beat, but I'm sure I could alleviate it when it does happen

Kevin - I agree about it not necessarily being wrong to play a little behind, I actually kind of dig it
I'm just getting frustrated because it's my default setting and I have a lot of trouble breaking out of that and getting right into the middle of the beat

Clarification to everyone, my concerns are really for swing/bop

[Dave Bassincus]

To the OP, an exercise that might help is to set up a beat with a drum machine (or click) and practice a simple riff moving behind, on top of, and then on the beat.

[kennypm]

A lot of the time, I find that what's holding me back from changing something is just that I'm not conceptualizing it or not conscious of it the whole time, so for me the best way to adjust my rhythmic feel is to try to imitate some else's. If I'm trying to play back behind the beat, I think Eric Revis. If I'm trying to play on top or ahead, I think Ray Brown or, even more so, early Charnett. If I'm trying to play really in the middle, I think Oscar Pettiford, Israel Crosby, or Paul Chambers. Just intently listening to older cats like that and trying to imitate their beat may help you out a lot.

[JavierBass]

Listen to alot of recordings, metronome work with trying to be ahead or behind the beat, but most importantly, playing along with recordings. That's essential. Playing with the recordings, you're imitating the bassist's time feel and where that is in relation to the drums. I'm big on Ray Brown and the drive he adds to the music, it's always moving forward, he propels the music. Bagley, this is a jazz double bass forum. There's no chicago or any pop, rock, stuff here. That's in the electric bass forums....This is about walking basslines. Ad Dave, there are no riffs in walking basslines. Go back to the EBG forums.

[Menacewarf]

Well I don't know exactly what a riff is but I think it intends something repeated? Anyway I am hearing right now PC play some highly repetitive lines that are HOT and f'n swinging and happening as all hell.

I guess this doesn't add to the conversation and I bet it ain't what you meant but I'll go with an excuse to bring up Mr Chamber's work .

[Mike Arnopol]

It's critical to understand your placement with the beat. I've always played on top because the guys I dig play that way. The thing is having control. When I was young, I played on top and rushed. Then I started practicing all of my scales and arpeggios with the metronome on 2 and 4 always with a walking feel. I learned that no matter where I was placing the note that the "center" was internalized. Personally, when walking I had no interest in playing behind, but I learned to control my placement and keep it consistant.
The other important thing is that the "feel" is an agreement between you and the drummer. You have to hear the drummer's "dance". You cant't just listen to the ride cymbal or hi hat. You have to hear how he is feeling the beat and place yourself to optimize the drummer's feel. It is not your job to keep a drummer from rushing or dragging. Even if you can keep the tempo rock solid it will feel like s**t. When I get called for a gig the first thing I ask is who's on drums. In jazz, often the tempo will acceletate a bit. A bit is ok, a lot isn't. When I was younger I had a hard time listening to some of the Tony Williams stuff because things really accelerated too much. The bottom line is that things should feel good.
Coming up in Chicago, I had to play many different styles from trad to avant garde. A laid-back feel that works on more swing type jazz won't work on post bop. As a bassist we have to have an incredibly solid center so that we can place ourselves in the beat where it feels best. If I'm playing with (Chicago guys) Paul Wertico or Mark Walker and I'm playing modern swing, I have to stick close to the center of the beat as theses guys play immovably dead-center. If I pushed too hard it would sound bad. With the right placement we get a very cool legato swing feel that can be very effective.
If I'm playing with someone like Adam Nussbaum I can push REALLY hard (as long as I don't rush) and get a really forward propelled swing feel which I love. Adam will look at you( while chewing gum) and kind of dare you to push harder. Maybe a tune will pick up one metronome marking, but it will feel really cool.
Ray Brown once did an interview with Wynton Marsalis. Wynton asked him about his placement in the beat. Ray said that if you imagine the beat as a twelve inch ruler with the center of the beat being at 6 inches, he would be at 12 inches and leaning off off the ruler.