George Vance and Rabbath Books.

[John453]

Hello everyone, you've all been a huge help to me in my previous threads.

I never got around to ordering a book to go along with Simandl and
I've been reading about the George Vance Method books on here. I searched Lemur for them. They just contain tunes ? That suprised me.

I understand that Rabbath uses a different position system than Simandl, so Rabbath's 4th position would be in thumb position, right? Right off the bat in George Vance's 1st book they go into thumb position to my knowledge. That seems odd to me

Would getting the Second Volume of George Vance's books be a good plan to go with Simandl? The first Vol? Or would it be better to get one of the Rabbath books? Do vance's books contain fingers and bowings or scale studies? Just tunes? I couldnt find what Rabbath's books contain. Do they have tunes also? or just Etudes and scale studies?

last question: In the Second Vol of Vance's book would the tunes go past a high C? I'm not familiar with the position system he uses.

At the moment I'm working on two octave scales up to Eb, and going through Simandl.

Thank you,
John

[jgbass]

John,

I would suggest that if you want to go with Vance books, you start with Volume I. It is a book designed for "younger players" so it has really basic tunes in it, but I had to go through book 1 to get to book 2., and this was after studying Simandl. I do think that, unless you are a very experienced player, it would be tough to study Simandl and Vance at the same time. And, yes, Vance gets right to thumb position in the first or second lesson.

Rabbath's books are etudes. I'm working on Volume 2, its all etudes, arpeggios, some scale studies, but the etudes are really very musical. I never studied Volume I of Rabbath, so I can't comment on that. Vance's Progressive Repertoire for the Double Bass is 98% tunes with CDs of Rabbath playing the tunes. Vance does have a method book, though, that is similar to Rabbath's.

[John453]

Thank you for your quick reply .

I think I will get Vance's first book just to be on the safe side.

I usually have the Simandl Etudes I'm assigned under my belt in about two or three days, this is why I'm interedsted in these books. Usually after i get through the Etudes i'm assigned I get bored of playing them until my lesson. I would go on in the book, but my teacher doesn't like me to.

I've thought about it and I have some extra money, so I'm going to order the First book.


Thank you,
John

[jgbass]

You will be playing mostly simple, kid's tunes to start, but its a good chance to explore thumb position and a different approach and the CD has some great playing ny Rabbath.

[bpclark]

Once you get into the Vance book, I think you will really like the approach. It sounds like you have a teacher already, but as you're in Columbus you may want to contact Jim Bates at Otterbein College in Westerville. He uses the Vance books for his students and could get you started on the right track with the book.

[John453]

Originally Posted by bpclark

Once you get into the Vance book, I think you will really like the approach. It sounds like you have a teacher already, but as you're in Columbus you may want to contact Jim Bates at Otterbein College in Westerville. He uses the Vance books for his students and could get you started on the right track with the book.

I do have a teacher. I'll ask my teacher if he knows Jim Bates this week. I'm also going to ask him if he likes George Vance/Rabbath's approach and if we could do a couple lessons with the book.


John

[bpclark]

I would think that if your teacher liked the Vance approach, you would be using it or some variation of it already. I can say from my own experience that when I left Simandl and started on the Vance stuff, the whole fingerboard became a much smaller and friendlier place.

If your interested, there is more info about Dr. Bates here (http://asodb.com/faculty/bates.html). The information on him looks up to date, but the picture is no longer a valid representation of his appearance.

[damonsmith]

I think these are valuable methods, and it is easier to work through them than to write them off. Some of the trouble I have is they can be a little unstable for music you don't IE jazz and improvised music and they are not as condusive to producing a big unamplified pizzicato sound as a "Simandl" left hand.
They REALLY help when trying to tackle Bach or other non Bass music. I would also check out the Petracchi method. He goes the other direction, making the thumb pos. more mobile making it span a third or monor third instead of a fourth, and making the thumb pull it's own weight by not allowing it to only center on harmonics.

[John453]

Originally Posted by bpclark

I would think that if your teacher liked the Vance approach, you would be using it or some variation of it already. I can say from my own experience that when I left Simandl and started on the Vance stuff, the whole fingerboard became a much smaller and friendlier place.

If your interested, there is more info about Dr. Bates here (http://asodb.com/faculty/bates.html). The information on him looks up to date, but the picture is no longer a valid representation of his appearance.

Thank you for the information on Dr. Bates. He sure has done a lot!

If he's on tha faculty of the ASODB I may be meeting him this summer (if he works with the "Future Virtuosi Program")

[Mike Goodbar]

I'm using the Vance method with a couple of my students. One student in particular has been successful because he did not play bass at all when he began lessons, and thus had no preconceived notions of what was supposed to be "difficult." He dove into thumb position with no reservations at all. Some of the middle-school students I've introduced to the thumb position via Vance have had a more difficult time, I think, because they think that thumb position is "supposed" to be hard.

One other obstacle I've run into is that while Vance starts off in the middle of the neck, most of the elementary and middle school orchestra repertoire takes place in half and 1st positions. Plus, if the student has had experience with Simandl, the position-naming protocol is quite dissimilar.

[bpclark]

Originally Posted by John453

Thank you for the information on Dr. Bates. He sure has done a lot!

If he's on tha faculty of the ASODB I may be meeting him this summer (if he works with the "Future Virtuosi Program")

I don't know how involved with the Future Virtuosi Program, he is cause I know he keeps pretty busy. I'm sure you'll meet Dr. Morton (if you haven't already) who has a different approach than Dr. Bates, but is also a very good teacher and at least to my ears a phenomenal player.

I've taken lessons from Dr. Bates for several years and also have a had a couple of lessons from Dr. Morton. There is no shortage of stuff, you could learn from either one of them.

[TomGale]

I usually have the Simandl Etudes I'm assigned under my belt in about two or three days, this is why I'm interedsted in these books. Usually after i get through the Etudes i'm assigned I get bored of playing them until my lesson. I would go on in the book, but my teacher doesn't like me to.

Why don't you just go down to the American School of DB in Columbus and see what they have in stock?
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

[John453]

Originally Posted by TomGale

I usually have the Simandl Etudes I'm assigned under my belt in about two or three days, this is why I'm interedsted in these books. Usually after i get through the Etudes i'm assigned I get bored of playing them until my lesson. I would go on in the book, but my teacher doesn't like me to.

Why don't you just go down to the American School of DB in Columbus and see what they have in stock?
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

I didn't know they had a store offline. You wouldn't happen to know their store hours would you?

[TomGale]

Go to the web site - ASODB.com for a phone and/or hours. I'm sure you could stop by when they are working and look through the books - about 10 different books.
Tom Gale

[bpclark]

Originally Posted by John453

I didn't know they had a store offline. You wouldn't happen to know their store hours would you?

I don't think I would call it a store because I don't think they have regular hours. I would do what Tom suggested and give 'em a call 614-232-BASS (2277) (or email info@asodb.com) and find a convenient time to visit. It's worth it just to see the building (converted firehouse).

[jgbass]

Originally Posted by TomGale

I usually have the Simandl Etudes I'm assigned under my belt in about two or three days, this is why I'm interedsted in these books. Usually after i get through the Etudes i'm assigned I get bored of playing them until my lesson. I would go on in the book, but my teacher doesn't like me to.

If you have getting these in a few days, sounds like you need for your teacher to give you more challenging material. I am working on material that I started months ago...its still in progress. Are you working on any repertorie, besides etudes? I have been working on classical types of solos from a solo DB book, and the Vance books would provide repertoire.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by jgbass

If you have getting these in a few days, sounds like you need for your teacher to give you more challenging material. I am working on material that I started months ago...its still in progress. Are you working on any repertorie, besides etudes? I have been working on classical types of solos from a solo DB book, and the Vance books would provide repertoire.

- I also find it productive to transpose the Simandl etudes to other keys and octaves and learn the same etude with a few of the different modern fingering options.

[Holly Wright]

If you go for the Rabbath, you will want to work through the Vance books. The region orchestra music was released a week ago and one of Rabbath's etudes is included. There is a controversy among the orcehstra directors trying to allow alternate fingerings. They say the ones written are really different to standered fingerings. I on the other hand, am learning with a breeze, its soo easy for me.

I have not seen the Simandl books, but if you plan on studying Rabbath, the Vance books are a great preparation.

I my personal opionion, I like Rabbath's method of fingerings better than standered. They seem a lot easier for me.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Holly Wright

If you go for the Rabbath, you will want to work through the Vance books. The region orchestra music was released a week ago and one of Rabbath's etudes is included. There is a controversy among the orcehstra directors trying to allow alternate fingerings. They say the ones written are really different to standered fingerings. I on the other hand, am learning with a breeze, its soo easy for me.

I have not seen the Simandl books, but if you plan on studying Rabbath, the Vance books are a great preparation.

I my personal opionion, I like Rabbath's method of fingerings better than standered. They seem a lot easier for me.

-I would also say Nanny would be good preparation - that is what Rabbath studied first and his method is partly a response/reaction to that.
These newer methods are great but I just have a strong feeling they work much better with something "under" them.
The older methods are very solid, sometimes, esp. when we are in "bass player" mode, that solidity really helps.
I am thankful for these new methods since I often play as an equal partner or even solo, they really help with musical ideas beyond the low end.
I am a curious guy so I have all of these books around, I even worked through some of the BIllie using the third finger.
It is best not to throw out the baby with the bath water. Not only that you can then make an informed decision even for each specific situation.

[John453]

Originally Posted by jgbass

If you have getting these in a few days, sounds like you need for your teacher to give you more challenging material. I am working on material that I started months ago...its still in progress. Are you working on any repertorie, besides etudes? I have been working on classical types of solos from a solo DB book, and the Vance books would provide repertoire.

I'm just starting on the vivaldi Sonata in A minor. It's quite fun