Getting a Bigger/Louder Sound

[Marc Piane]

Truthfully I think there is very little correlation between pulling the string hard and volume. The character of the attack changes but I feel like every string reaches a threshold, which is pretty low, on how hard you have to pull for max volume. Like DC points out, I've found it it all about a big heavy relaxed arm. The weight does the rest... for volume. Then your angle of attack, the speed of the pull, the muscle force can help to shape the character of the attack.

[powerbass]

I'm a relative beginner so correct me if I'm wrong but part of what I struggle w/generating "the sound" has to do w/a consistent attack of every note. There are parts to my walking that are quieter because I have not mastered how to consistently play correctly in that part of the neck/position/scale/fingering etc. What I love about Ray Brown's playing is the consistent attack/volume of every note he plays even the embellishments have the same overall tone/volume. So it comes back to the right/left hands working as best they can together and separately producing a consistent sound. That's what I notice

[Phil Rowan]

Originally Posted by Marc Piane

Truthfully I think there is very little correlation between pulling the string hard and volume. The character of the attack changes but I feel like every string reaches a threshold, which is pretty low, on how hard you have to pull for max volume. Like DC points out, I've found it it all about a big heavy relaxed arm. The weight does the rest... for volume. Then your angle of attack, the speed of the pull, the muscle force can help to shape the character of the attack.

This reminds me of how pizz works when used in classical music. IME, I learned that it's almost like you make your fingers into a hook (using the fleshiest part of the index and middle finger) to grasp the string and then use your whole arm pull the string in a rather slow motion. If I do classical pizz using just the finger and pulling the string hard it often results in a click of the string against the fingerboard, and that definitely gets in the way of a blended sound. Counterintuitively, for FF pizz sections I try to pull the string even slower using the same method described above.. it really starts at the back/shoulder.

So, I tried doing the same or similar for when I play jazz (if not the same exact thing then at least the same mindset/concept), and I feel that that combined with where I pizz (at or just below the fingerboard for a bigger sound, IME) results in a big sound anywhere on the fingerboard. I think of it also in terms of when bowing.. for a big arco sound the last thing you want to do is press because this dampens the string, i.e. doesn't allow it to vibrate to its fullest point. If instead the natural weight of the arm is transferred to the bow so that the contact of the hair on the string is only as strong as your arm's natural weight, and we pull the note/tone out of the bass (again, this also starts at the back/shoulder.. heck, even the legs/feet), the sound is just huge. And you can actually see the string vibrating at a very wide arc.. if one's goal is to get the biggest most direct sound possible the goal then is to make that arc as wide as possible.

So yeah, I try to think of it the same way when pizzing. That digging in we so often hear about doesn't mean manhandling the instrument. It's weird.. the thought of lightening up to get the biggest sound, but I do believe this helps achieve that kind of sound. This is all IMHO, IME and I hope my post wasn't too confusing.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Phil Rowan

So yeah, I try to think of it the same way when pizzing. That digging in we so often hear about doesn't mean manhandling the instrument. It's weird.. the thought of lightening up to get the biggest sound, but I do believe this helps achieve that kind of sound. This is all IMHO, IME and I hope my post wasn't too confusing.

Clear as a bell.

I just think that 'lightening up' causes you to relax and makes your arm naturally heavier.

[Phil Rowan]

Absolutely, Marc. And this is to add on to my lengthy post just now..IMHO I feel like this is why it's so important to have a working knowledge of playing arco. It helps out in so many areas.. intonation is a huge part but it's also about just digging even deeper into how exactly the instrument works, how to create sound(s), colors, dynamics, etc, etc.

Edit - Of course I go and read the rest of the thread after I posted here , but I'm in total agreement with (and seem to have unknowingly seconded) what PB+J has to say as well as Ed Fuqua in terms of getting physics on our sides (and there's tons more great advice on the 1st page).

[Marc Piane]

I have to remind myself of this all the time. I have huge, strong hands. I can cripple people with my handshake. I have the tendency in the moment to overplay and I pay for it later.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by PB+J

I think more of the volume than we think is in the left hand. Having a good focused point of contact and a reasonable amount of hand strength makes a big difference.

I would say that it's even more than that; having a clear expectation of pitch, clarity of WHAT your idea is and WHERE those notes are on the fingerboard allows you to approach the pizz hand with a lot more confidence. That translates into a more solid and projecting sound...

[Phil Rowan]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I would say that it's even more than that; having a clear expectation of pitch, clarity of WHAT your idea is and WHERE those notes are on the fingerboard allows you to approach the pizz hand with a lot more confidence. That translates into a more solid and projecting sound...

Hell yes. +1.

[MR PC]

Originally Posted by powerbass

I'm a relative beginner so correct me if I'm wrong but part of what I struggle w/generating "the sound" has to do w/a consistent attack of every note. There are parts to my walking that are quieter because I have not mastered how to consistently play correctly in that part of the neck/position/scale/fingering etc. What I love about Ray Brown's playing is the consistent attack/volume of every note he plays even the embellishments have the same overall tone/volume. So it comes back to the right/left hands working as best they can together and separately producing a consistent sound. That's what I notice

Find things to do away from the bass, or any instrument, that make this coordination of right and left sides of your body's motor movement work together. The less you have to think about or effort this kind of movement, the more sound you will produce.

[Jason Sypher]

Lest we forget to add that your sound comes from your feet all the way through your spine and through your entire body. You must learn how to stand and deliver the sound. Any tension in your body will be translated to the bass and diminish your sound...

[StyleOverShow]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Lest we forget to add that your sound comes from your feet all the way through your spine and through your entire body. You must learn how to stand and deliver the sound. Any tension in your body will be translated to the bass and diminish your sound...

It all starts in the feet, and foot wear, yes.

Great thread. Agree pluck is louder, attacking your instrument is elemental at times, and playing in tune always helps.

[Les Fret]

Originally Posted by PB+J

I think more of the volume than we think is in the left hand.

I always have trouble understanding or believing this. How can the left hand influence volume? if you press the string correctly with ease and no buzzing (and in tune) what else can we do to give it more volume? Sure you have to press the string correctly but pressing it any harder than that makes no sense and doesn't add up to the volume.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

I always have trouble understanding or believing this. How can the left hand influence volume? if you press the string correctly with ease and no buzzing (and in tune) what else can we do to give it more volume? Sure you have to press the string correctly but pressing it any harder than that makes no sense and doesn't add up to the volume.

Who said anything about pressing harder?

[PB+J]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

I always have trouble understanding or believing this. How can the left hand influence volume? if you press the string correctly with ease and no buzzing (and in tune) what else can we do to give it more volume? Sure you have to press the string correctly but pressing it any harder than that makes no sense and doesn't add up to the volume.

Yes, I had trouble believing it as well, coming as I did from electric bass. It's not just a matter of pressing harder. It's a matter of getting the fingertips into the action instead of the pads of the fingers, and also paying more attention to the release of the note. If you started on double bass, this is probably obvious, But if you started on the slab, as I did, then the left hand's importance is really crucial. Getting a really focused point of contact, getting more control over the release of the note.

It's not really about pulling harder. I wish I could explain it better. The other thing is slow work with the bow REALLY gets your intonation together, and that makes a huge difference. If you hit a note out of tune you get tentative, or at least I do.

If you are coming primarily from the slab, try it--get a bow, and practice long, slow tones. Like a two octave G scale with whole notes, at 80 bpm. I could not believe how much it sharpened up my LEFT hand, and how it improved volume when playing pizz.

The slab, even the fretless slab, lets you get away with sloppy left hand technique

[PB+J]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I would say that it's even more than that; having a clear expectation of pitch, clarity of WHAT your idea is and WHERE those notes are on the fingerboard allows you to approach the pizz hand with a lot more confidence. That translates into a more solid and projecting sound...

Yes to this

[PB+J]

Originally Posted by Marc Piane

I have to remind myself of this all the time. I have huge, strong hands. I can cripple people with my handshake. I have the tendency in the moment to overplay and I pay for it later.

The thing that stopped me from overplaying is putting a monitor behind me, at head level. After years of work, and owning a big bass (shen 2b-200), Ive developed a pretty big tone. Putting a small monitor behind my head keeps me from overplayng, because I can hear myself clearly and I'm not blowing out the other guys on the bandstand, who in my case are usually guitarists

I use either the mackie SRM 150 or the EV zx1. The mackie is lousy as a bass amp but great as a personal monitor. It doesn't sound like my bass, but it gives me a pitch and volume reference and stops me from wearing myself out. I'm usually doing gigs with no sound man and often no PA though. YMMV

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

I always have trouble understanding or believing this. How can the left hand influence volume? if you press the string correctly with ease and no buzzing (and in tune) what else can we do to give it more volume? Sure you have to press the string correctly but pressing it any harder than that makes no sense and doesn't add up to the volume.

This is a complicated issue, and I just wrote an article about it and even had trouble explaining it there. There are basically four kinds of stops that I normally hear students make (as described in the second section of the linked article under "What constitutes a good stop..."), and they often go back and forth between them. I also find that students from strictly classical backgrounds often are used to making the third category of stop and compensating with the bow, which gets exposed when they are playing without it. I watched an excellent masterclass with Hal Robinson where he brought this up, and his demonstration was impressive.

You are right: beyond a certain point, there is nothing to be gained by applying more downforce into the string with the left hand. But up to that point, there is a great deal to be gained. The issue is clouded by the whole issue of fingertips and pads (and the definition of these terms), and the different amounts of force needed to play with a different part of the finger surface. I just finished an article on this as well, and will link it as soon as it is published. It will also be a part of a new jazz bass technique video that I hope to get finished and up before the end of the year.

But in general, I think there's some fantastic advice in this thread. A bigger sound is a byproduct of right hand technique, left hand technique, and what I will call musical technique - basically the things that Ed mentions earlier in the thread: The expectation of pitch, sound, and understanding what you're doing in a detailed musical context, or what I usually refer to as "pre-hearing". If any of these things is lacking, the sound will not reach its maximum potential.

[damonsmith]

Being relaxing and strong in both hands, using the shoulders and not the hands helps, everything Ed and others have said. A clear position + playing tune pushed the sound through.
Playing outside can help develop you pizz sound - with no walls to bounce off you push your self more:
Check out Peter Kowald and other Free Jazz players:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyqdyxsF5Jc

[StyleOverShow]

Originally Posted by PB+J

The thing that stopped me from overplaying is putting a monitor behind me, at head level. .... It doesn't sound like my bass, but it gives me a pitch and volume reference and stops me from wearing myself out. ...

I pull the bass against my body to feel the pitch, or at least it seems that way, and it puts my joints in tiring positions. Was looking at a PJB suitcase amp just yesterday as a small table top amp.

[hdiddy]

+1 with the potential power of arco affecting your sound. I am making another attempt at the stick o' pain and actually I'm finally feeling like I'm getting somewhere. The arco video lesson series that Michael Klinghoffer did has been extremely helpful.

http://www.driveadoublebass.com

I think one potential avenue others may not have though of is that we often hear teachers tell us that you shouldn't have to press or squeeze with the left hand to stop a note. See video lesson 1 & 3. Klinghoffer demonstrates that in letting the bass fall forward there is some amount of the basses own weight that pushes itself into our fingers. Lots of teachers (here and elsewhere) advise the same. In messing around with that concept, if I let my bass transfer some of it's weight I get this fuller/fatter pizz sound without even pulling a tiny ounce harder.

To that point, I'm personally making a bigger attempt at improving my arco chops. Already thumb position feels 10 times easier after a few practice sessions. I think it does have a big affect on my sound, pizz or otherwise.