Getting a Bigger/Louder Sound

[hdiddy]

One more point. DURRL's video turned many of us on to using the weight of the forearm to get a bigger tone/sound.

Strictly speaking if you think about pure physics:
Force = Mass X Acceleration

To which you could interpret as:
Big Sound = Mass X Pull Strength

So if you want to play loud without increasing the amount of strength to pull the string, then you have to somehow bring in more mass into how you pull the string. It explains why pulling with the side of your fingers gets a better sound - you're using the mass of the hand and fingers.

I think this is why many teachers also espouse pulling strings from the larger muscle groups (back muscles, leg muscle). You get not only more strength, but also more mass into the game. My previous post is just the discovery that I can throw the mass of the bass into the mix.

If you can bring a ton of mass into the game, you might even be able to reduce on the amount of strength needed.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

One more point. DURRL's video turned many of us on to using the weight of the forearm to get a bigger tone/sound.

Strictly speaking if you think about pure physics:
Force = Mass X Acceleration

To which you could interpret as:
Big Sound = Mass X Pull Strength

So if you want to play loud without increasing the amount of strength to pull the string, then you have to somehow bring in more mass into how you pull the string. It explains why pulling with the side of your fingers gets a better sound - you're using the mass of the hand and fingers.

I think this is why many teachers also espouse pulling strings from the larger muscle groups (back muscles, leg muscle). You get not only more strength, but also more mass into the game. My previous post is just the discovery that I can throw the mass of the bass into the mix.

If you can bring a ton of mass into the game, you might even be able to reduce on the amount of strength needed.

You explained the science behind it much better than I did in the video. But yes, playing from the body is way more effective than playing from the hand or arm. I think of it as a progression from least effective/relaxed to most effective/relaxed:

1) Finger/Hand/Forearm (squeezing)
2) Elbow/Shoulder
3) Chest/back
4) Torso/Hips

The farther down the list you go, the bigger the muscle groups get, and therefore the less stress is applied to the muscle group(s) to produce the required amount of force to get the job done. I've finally made it to stage 3 and am transitioning into stage 4.

Interestingly, I think this formula applies to the technique of both hands. It's a large part of the reason I sit when playing, and always seemed like a compromise for a long time: to me, sitting seemed to improve the leverage of the left hand immensely, which improved stops, sound, and intonation, and also gave me an immovable reference point from the torso to any point on the bass. It took a while to adjust to the right hand portion of the equation, since sitting at first seemed to limit the range of motion. I've overcome that by now, but when people say they want to play standing for this reason, I totally get what they are saying and don't won't argue with it.

I'm proud to say that I've never coerced a single student to sit when they prefer to stand, and I hope I can still say this 20 years from now. For players who prefer to stand, I notice that the better ones all seem to have some provision in place to allow them to leverage more body power into the left hand; sometimes it's the Karr "vertical approach", sometimes it's the bent endpin which allows the bass to anchor better, and sometimes it's another connection to the body, usually on the hip. Different strokes, as long as the leverage is there.

The third video in the series I've been working on is about leverage and the left hand, and I expect it to be less well received than the first two because of some details that not everyone will agree with. But that's life. The big lesson is that full stops are essential, that playing with different parts of the finger surface produces different sounds and requires somewhat different amounts of force; as long as enough force can be applied to the string to produce the desired tone and allow the player to still be relaxed, I call that "good technique".

Slightly off topic, since you seem to have some knowledge of/interest in the physics involved, I'd be interested in learning what the formula is as regards applying pressure with various sized surface areas. Specifically, since the very tip of the finger is smaller and harder than the pad, it requires less force to achieve a full stop with it. If tips and pads sounded the same, that would be the end of the story; but since they don't it, would be interesting to see the ratios of force needed as relates to size/hardness of the area applying the force to achieve the same result, if only as an intellectual illustration.

Last, the Klinghoffer video series is great!

[chicagodoubler]

Guys,

We're getting too brainy about all this.

Go get a lesson with a guy who plays loud. Learning how to play jazz online is like using a lasagna noodle to hammer a nail.

This is an aural art form. It is taught face to face, up close. It always has been this way, and it always will be. Spend five minutes in a room with a guy like John Clayton and your playing will change forever, for the better. Invest too much time online and you might just hurt yourself. That's why we go to teachers; they fix things we can't fix on our own, even with well-intentioned online advice from great players.

Good points on the left hand. If you play in tune, the bass resonates more. Beyond that, I defer to lessons with a pro.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

All true. OTOH, since this is a discussion forum, folks are discussing. All is as it should be.

[hdiddy]

When I asked John Clayton about getting a big sound in person, his answer was a letdown. He does use his forearm and everything he does comes from the hand and fingers. He can get away with it, he's a big guy. He discourages any type of chicken wing technique for his students.

It was a non-answer afaic.

Chris, the physics behind tips and pads is simple. It's just more pressure per sq inch. The smaller the surface, the exponentially easier it gets to stop the string. The his basic high school physics. Just like when you tilt your chair on its back legs, the amount of force each legs puts on the ground grows exponentially.

Something like that.

Chris' video is the closest thing to any type of effective understanding about pizz technique I've ever seen. Everybody else just gives the hand-waving BS answer as its some sort of magic that can be attained by bass enlightenment.

Which is why Klinghoffers mantra is so right.

[chicagodoubler]

Chris,

I've had a couple guys come to me for lessons who had seriously hurt themselves from taking online advice without consulting with a teacher, face-to-face. We can discuss these things as professionals, but.... I feel quite strongly that this forum should come with a warning label- "use at your own risk, and always consult with a professional."

Hdiddy- the inherent issue is that it isn't something you can easily explain, and there's more than one way to do it. You just have to see it, imitate, and keep trying til you get it right. Referring to Mr. Clayton's size.... I, many of his other students, and even a young Ray Brown were smaller, play that way, and draw a big sound. This is why you really need to commit to studying with someone whose playing you love if you don't get a eureka moment right off the bat.

To young guys trying to get *the sound*- go to gigs, sit close, and listen hard. Transcribe. Study as often as you can with world-class players. Play scales with the bow. Hit the shed. If it hurts, stop. There are no shortcuts.

[Les Fret]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

The issue is clouded by the whole issue of fingertips and pads (and the definition of these terms), and the different amounts of force needed to play with a different part of the finger surface. I just finished an article on this as well, and will link it as soon as it is published. It will also be a part of a new jazz bass technique video that I hope to get finished and up before the end of the year.
.

Thanks for your article. Curious about your new article as well.
Without over analyzing it (the risk of that is certainly in the air) it basically comes down to producing a good tone with as little effort as possible. You can vary the tone color or sustain by varying the pressure or use the fingertips or pads. Pads produce more growl buzzing and sustain. Fingertips produce a more focused tone.

But still these are differences in tone color not volume.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

Thanks for your article. Curious about your new article as well.
Without over analyzing it (the risk of that is certainly in the air) it basically comes down to producing a good tone with as little effort as possible. You can vary the tone color or sustain by varying the pressure or use the fingertips or pads. Pads produce more growl buzzing and sustain. Fingertips produce a more focused tone.

I agree with everything you say in the article.

But still these are differences in tone color not volume.

I agree that they don't have to be issues of volume, but they can turn into that if a player isn't careful. It takes more pressure to play with the pads and still get a good strong stop. I used to try to play with only the minimum amount of LH pressure so as not to waste energy, but found that I still had some notes that didn't sing as well as the others. With a little more pressure, they would have.

These days I try try to play with an amount of LH force that is slightly greater than I actually need most of the time, so that I don't get those dips in the volume/clarity every once in a while. This is a case where I feel it's better to overshoot than undershoot. And since the source of the force are the bigger muscle groups of the chest, back and shoulder, the cost is minimal.

[damonsmith]

Lots of good advice, doubler's advice to find a teacher with a strong sound is good.
Seriously, check out the free jazz players - they had more to cut through (many would say more b.s. to cut through) so some of the strongest pizz sounds you can find are going to be guys like Kent Carter, William Parker, original Henry Grimes, Peter Kowald, Johnny Dyani, etc.
Most free players have at least listened to the straight jazz greats, but rarely does it go the other way.
This is an area where the free players have lot to offer the straight ahead guys.

[Nathan Levine]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

... some of the strongest pizz sounds you can find are going to be guys like Kent Carter, William Parker, original Henry Grimes, Peter Kowald, Johnny Dyani, etc.
Most free players have at least listened to the straight jazz greats, but rarely does it go the other way.

Great advice Damon. British bassist John Edwards should be added this list if only for the sheer ferociousness of his pizz sound. I had never really heard anything like it, until I did.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Nathan Levine

Great advice Damon. British bassist John Edwards should be added this list if only for the sheer ferociousness of his pizz sound. I had never really heard anything like it, until I did.

Agreed. I threw my back out playing duo with that guy..,

[chicagodoubler]

I've been too busy to plow through all of this but in case it hasn't been mentioned yet, everyone should play some gigs without an amp. It's amazing how quickly one will figure out how to play louder when it becomes an absolute necessity to do so. Recently, at least 60% of my work on the upright is completely amp-free. Joy.

Also, setup really matters. Right hand placement does as well.

A fun experiment- use microphones at least 10 feet from your bass and a pair of isolation headphones and see what's actually coming out of your bass. As mentioned above, you don't really hear what's happening when you're standing over the bass.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Lest we forget to add that your sound comes from your feet all the way through your spine and through your entire body...

So do Keens get a bigger sound than Merrells?

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Keens facilitate a more 'open' sound.

[jeffbonny]

Florsheims will promote a more polished sound.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Merrells will produce the most versatile sound, whether standing or sitting. Just slip 'em on and play.

[chicagodoubler]

Crocs sound a little synthetic.

[Phil Rowan]

I never leave home with my bass without sporting my UGGs.

[powerbass]

my preference is Crocs then Keens, barefoot works well too

[Jason Sypher]

Birkenstocks will give you a nuttier more organic sound while Prada will give you a more refined, smooth grained....