Hard Question #1.

[Chrix]

I dunno. Hopefully this will spark pages and pages of debate, head-biting, name-calling, weeping and the like, but I'm feeling particularly lost and/or rebellious and need to know some other opinions to a few questions I have. The second will be in another aptly titled thread shortly.


But here goes...


I've been thinking a lot about my sound lately. I know many people here are in the same boat, but I wonder if I'm in the minority in my opinions.

I always hear about trying to get the natural sound of the bass. The big woody tone. The thump, or whatever. And while I love to listen to PC, Oscar Pettiford, Ray Brown, Wilbur Ware, etc...I've never completely felt that this is the sound for me. But then I listen to someone like Marc Johnson on the Paris Concerts with Bill Evans. Or Eddie Gomez or Gary Peacock. Guys that I feel, and read from other conversations here, have a bit more of an electric sound. And while I understand where some may not dig on this sound, I wonder often what is so terrible about it. The notes are almost always clear and precise throughout the range of the instrument. There's no muddiness that sometimes is heard from the other style of playing. Yet the bottom end is not missing.

So I guess my real question is that if I moved to New York tomorrow to try to start working and sounded more like late 70s-era Marc Johnson as opposed to late 50s' Paul Chambers, would no one hire me, even if I was laying down the groove as well as the next guy?

This is something I've struggled with in my playing and setup for a while. I currently have a set of EPs on my bass and right now absolutely love the acoustic sound. Big and full. I haven't had a chance to amp them yet (I just put them on today) but from what I've read on that thread, it might be a bit of a crap shoot. Before those I had Hybrids on my bass, and have also done Animas, Obligatos and Spiros (Wiechs and Mittels). I also tend to play with my action relatively low. I don't pull super hard and let the amp do a decent amount of the work. (I don't meant to turn this into a strings or setup discussion, but I feel that it's hard not to mention them.) But the sound I always tend to go for in gig situations might be called, by some, more electric. I guess my ideal sound would be Dave Holland, who always, in my opinion, gets a great combination of both. I guess I just like the mwaahhh better than the thud.

I feel I should mention that while I dig Marc Johnson's sound on those records, it too can sometimes sound too electric for me on other recordings, or say Ron Carter's tone on Red Clay or some other bassists that have similar tones. It can go too far in either case.

I'm positive that I'm not done thinking about this and hopefully some discussion on here will at least get me thinking in some different ways, but I'm definitely interested in everyone's opinions, hopefully with a minimal amount of yelling .

[Nami]

I also have the same feel about a regression in the double bass sound, when i was trying to decide what sound should i go for i noticed that many people are afraid from a clear "electric" sounding double bass. My luck is that my teacher exposed me really early to people like Gomez and Vitous and i learned to appreciate this style of sound.

I have to say that everything has 2 sides, while i never heard from the "acoustic fanatics" a word about muddy sound i can criticize modern sounding bassists for playing with too cold sound. For example, avishai cohen sounds real bad last few years when it comes to being clear, in his last show i couldn't understand any note that wasn't played in the thumb position, when he soloed with the lows i was thinking to myself "wow, what a boring drum solo" you can hear it when he plays DB in the live recording "As Is" . And for my opinion, patitucci is also a great player but his sound is way too cold, i can understand every note so it's better from being muddy but the sound is not full to my ears.

As i see it, if i want to feel good about my sound i have to find the way to the modern clear but also warm and round sound but for being able to catch as much jobs as i can i would consider trying to find a way to get those two sounds out of me.

Hope my point of view helped.
Gal.

[Chrix]

All points of view help.

I guess I might have been a bit harsh with the term 'muddy' but I think most people here know what I mean when I say that. I guess saying 'lack of definition' might be better. I just like to hear every note that someone plays. Transcribing someone like Paul Chambers can be a bit tough at times because not every note is crystal clear. That's obviously not to slight PC, but I feel like it's a joy to hear every note.

[ctxbass]

Go for the sound that you want to hear. You won't be satisfied otherwise, and getting your own sound is a big part of developing as a player.

[Chrix]

Originally Posted by ctxbass

Go for the sound that you want to hear. You won't be satisfied otherwise, and getting your own sound is a big part of developing as a player.

Ultimately I completely agree with this. However, as an aspiring bassist, when I hear people tell me that every bassist in New York is switching to gut strings and hiking their action 4 inches off the fingerboard to get a more "old school" sound, I must admit it worries me as to my chances to being the least bit successful.

[ctxbass]

I sincerely doubt "every bassist" in NY is doing that. It may be a trend among those bassists who have not yet found their sound, but that could mean more work for you in the long run.

I will add that versatility is what keeps many musicians working steadily throughout their career, and you may not be totally enamored with every gig you take.

[milomo]

Originally Posted by Chrix

Ultimately I completely agree with this. However, as an aspiring bassist, when I hear people tell me that every bassist in New York is switching to gut strings and hiking their action 4 inches off the fingerboard to get a more "old school" sound, I must admit it worries me as to my chances to being the least bit successful.

I don't know who those people are, but they don't know what they're talking about. Gut strings are definitely in the minority. With that said, there is every kind of bass player in NY, gut and steel, high action and low, inside and out and everything in between. So just find the sound you want and go with it. Most people here (everywhere) don't care so much about your equipment, they care more about the music you make with that equipment.

[milomo]

Originally Posted by ctxbass

It may be a trend among those bassists who have not yet found their sound

I don't understand the logic behind this statement. Could you explain, please?

[fingers]

The opinions expressed below are not necessarily that of Talkbass or its sponsors.

Like someone said, you gotta do what's right for you. I work pretty consistently so take my opinion for what its worth.

I want a sound that punches people in the gut. I want a sound that drives a band. I want a sound that is almost subliminal but you know something is really missing when its not there. I like to groove. I don't carry around that big thing so I can sound like something other than a big acoustic bass. I don't care if the leader gives me a solo on the gig. The greatest compliment I can get is 'man, you groove' (which almost makes me cry tears of joy every time I hear it).

I took me a long time to start the journey towards 'my thing'. I'm still searching and always will be pushing myself. I just started to really examine what effected me when I listened to recordings. Bass that grooves, bass that drives, bass that punches you in the gut.

[David Kaczorowski]

I don't think any will care one way or another. Your sound is just a part of the complete picture. The complete picture is what matters.

[Jason Sypher]

There are a million sounds to be made on the doublebass. One is no better than the other. If the sound you make is beautiful and the way you play fits the situation then forget about the rest. Go for beauty. I think it was Emerson who said something about "your inner-most thought, your personal truth will find a universality but you have to express it". Wow, that's not what he said at all. But you get the idea, if it's true for you, it will be true for someone else. Stand by your convictions.

[Damon Rondeau]

That just might be the best advice ever given on TalkBass.

[oliebrice]

Originally Posted by Chrix

I I guess my ideal sound would be Dave Holland

well he seems to work a fair bit... as do eddie gomez and miroslav vitous....

[fingers]

Originally Posted by fingers

I just started to really examine what effected me when I listened to recordings.

This helped me loads. I felt very lost for a while. Someone suggested this to me and, by gum, it worked.

[Chrix]

They indeed do. Maybe some of my perceptions are a bit skewed. I know, of course that not every single bassist trying to work in NY is trying to go for an older type of sound. But when I hear people think that that's the way to go, or that if you don't sound like (insert name here), then it seems to be a bit disheartening.

[MingusAmongUs]

To kind of echo what others have said, it's a personal thing. Go for what you like, not what others expect, or what will get you the job. If you get lots of jobs making a sound you don't like making, what's the point?

Personally I am not crazy about that "rubber band" 70s amp sound, but I spent 2 years studying with a guy who typifies it, and still learned plenty of stuff that I can use no matter what my sound.

[adbass]

Music is supposed to be fun. Do what makes you happy.

Above all else, bassist are supposed to be supportive, so your success as a bassist will likely be based more on that than what kind of sound you typify.

Then again, success, which can be defined in many ways, may or may not be the thing that makes you happy.

[fingers]

Originally Posted by adbass

Above all else, bassist are supposed to be supportive, so your success as a bassist will likely be based more on that than what kind of sound you typify.

+1.

**********************************************

Just to stoke the coals to this pretty tame discussion.

Haven't you ever sat in the audience and ever wondered why the bass player chose bass rather than or sax?

Or that s/he wasn't doing his/her job?

Or that the bass sounds like a big fretless?

Being all touchy-feely about doing what makes you happy and all is great but I think he is looking for some advice for a younger player getting starting in the crazy music biz. I don't mean to speak for Chrix so pardon me if I'm off in left field on this.

[MingusAmongUs]

Originally Posted by fingers

+1.

**********************************************

Just to stoke the coals to this pretty tame discussion.

Haven't you ever sat in the audience and ever wondered why the bass player chose bass rather than or sax?

Or that s/he wasn't doing his/her job?

Or that the bass sounds like a big fretless?

Being all touchy-feely about doing what makes you happy and all is great but I think he is looking for some advice for a younger player getting starting in the crazy music biz. I don't mean to speak for Chrix so pardon me if I'm off in left field on this.

Wanna fight?

However the question is intended, I hold to my reply. Trends in sounds come and go, and one can always swap out gear with the fads, but in the end, it is what it is. I choose to hone my ACOUSTIC sound, and when I must plug in, it never sounds the way I want so why fight it? Yes I have had those thoughts while listening to bass players, but I always keep them to myself. Nobody wants to hear it, I figure.

I guess if was in the OPs place, I would at least give it a go with the sound I wanted, and if nobody hired me, I'd probably become a bit more flexible. It does seem like the general trend (not just in NY but all over) right now is toward a more natural acoustic sound, but I expect it will always ebb and flow.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I can't speak to what most players in NYC might or might not want, but know that I've thought about this question a lot, and what I've come up with is this:

1) I have a sonic concept in my head of what I want my bass to sound like both by itself and also sitting in the mix with other instruments.

2) I want my sound to sing. I want it to be melodic; I want it to have a strong attack, but I also want it to sustain. I've always felt that it's better to have a big, strong, singing acoustic sound to work from, since it's a lot easier for me to back off and get other types of sounds from there when the music calls for that.

3) I'm not a "gut string" player because in general, I don't hear that kind of sound in my mind's ear. There are many things about the old school gut sound that I don't like for my own playing and what I'm going for. I haven't even posted in the gut string maniac megathreads! I naturally hear a more lyrical kind of sound that I find difficult to get out of gut strings, so that's what I go for. That said, when I hear someone doing the gutlike thing who hears that sound in their inner ear, I usually think it sounds good and works with the music because the player is being true to their own nature and conception.

4) Sometimes people will call you specifically because of the sound/feel you bring to the music through the tone of your instrument. Sometimes people will NOT call you for the same reason. That's as it should be. Why should someone call me when they want someone who sounds like PC...especially when there are guys around whose nature it is to want to sound like PC?

Bottom line, strive to produce the sound that moves you to make music when you hear it. The rest is all moot if you don't do that. YMMV, FWIW, YMWCB, etc...