Holding the bass/pressing the strings

Rob Downie · #1 08-02-2006, 10:54 PM

There have been upwards of 20 threads in this forum dealing with how to hold the bass and use the arm/shoulder/back muscles to depress the strings instead of squeezing with the thumb. Many folks have suggested sitting down so that the bass is held firm and you can use the weight of your arm. This makes sense and I have an adjustable bass stool on order so that I can start practicing the sitting technique. But how about standing? Some posters have said you can use the arm/shoulder/back muscles while standing and this is where I don't get it. Some say they use their thumb, but only to balance the instrument. They say they use their arm/shoulder/back muscles to pull the strings. I understand the theory but I just can't make it work. I can't pull with my arm/shoulder/back muscles without putting pressure on the thumb. Abstractions like "gravity," "leverage," and "energy flow" are not helping me. Can anyone explain this in a way that can be understood by someone who doesn't already know how to do it? Others say they do not use their thumb for balance, but that the bass rests on their body, leaving their hands free. Do they stand behind it like a cello? I really need more specifics to understand this. Finally, several posters have recommended doing exercises with the thumb off the neck of the bass. Sounds like great advice, but first you have to be able to PLAY with the thumb off the neck and I still can't figure out how to do this in a standing position. I do have a teacher and I am working with him on all of this, but he does most of his playing sitting down, so I am hoping to get some other input.

Rob

SLaPiNFuNK · #2 08-02-2006, 11:10 PM

I feel its the other way around...

I stand letting the base lean back towards me ballanced... I dont have to hold it with my hands... i have the corner pressing into me...

When playing, I somewhat push the bass forward so it is almost falling forward, but what is holding it from falling is my left hand / fingers... with the bass falling away and my hands are getting some help from the weight of the bass to push down the strings....

Its kind of hard to explain, but maybe it will help?

jallenbass · #3 08-03-2006, 08:26 AM

Ken - He says that he has a teacher.

Rob Downie · #4 08-03-2006, 08:48 AM

Ken--

I appreciate your concern. As I mentioned at the end of my post, I do have a teacher and we are working on all of this. I am simply trying to understand what the many posters on this topic have said. Input from other players is always valuable and often there will be one person who puts it in a way that really "lights the lamp" for me. (Sorry to say I don't own any of your fine basses. Maybe you were looking at someone else's profile?)

Rob

Jeff Guevin · #5 08-03-2006, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLaPiNFuNK

I feel its the other way around...

I stand letting the base lean back towards me ballanced... I dont have to hold it with my hands... i have the corner pressing into me...

When playing, I somewhat push the bass forward so it is almost falling forward, but what is holding it from falling is my left hand / fingers... with the bass falling away and my hands are getting some help from the weight of the bass to push down the strings....

Its kind of hard to explain, but maybe it will help?

+1. Practice having the bass fall into your left hand slightly. An exercise I do is to finger the A on the G string with my second finger, pluck once, and try to gliss smoothly all the way up to the end of the fingerboard, maintaining good form in the shoulder, arm, and hand the whole way. To do this right, you won't clamp with your thumb at all, as you won't be able to shift if you do. You can repeat with other fingers or on other strings, but I mainly just use to "get the feel" of moving from lower to upper positions without tension or collapsing the shoulder-to-elbow-to-wrist-to-fingers arc.

hdiddy · #6 08-03-2006, 10:05 AM

I think before you can address the fingering, you have to look at body position. This is how I was taught, hopefully it'll come across right.

1. Without the bass, stand with feet shoulder width apart. You should be comfortable.
2. Angle the left foot (if you're right handed) a little bit. Feet should be pointing like the direction of...
\ |
3. Keep feeling comfortable and balance on both feet. Try to keep you weight even - the tendency will be put all your weight on the right foot.
4. Bend your knees just slightly.
5. Now grab the bass. Lean the bass into you where the amount of lean is "comfortable" for you. The back right corner of the upper bout should rest right into the area next to your left hip bone on the left side your tummy.
6. Your bent left knee comes in and touches the back of the bass. From here, you should be able to slightly control the bass if it turns left or right using your hip and your knee.

I think some people on this board don't like using the knee as such, but you can always remove it once you get the hang of things. The bass can lean into you against these points and should stay up for at least a second or two if you totally let go. You should play with the angle of how you stand, your weight, and how the bass leans into you and find out what your happy medium is. HTHs.

Jeff Guevin · #7 08-03-2006, 10:16 AM

Sometimes I wonder if Simandl's little illustration of how to hold the bass does more harm than good, it's so incomplete. Sure didn't help me much, but it made me think I was doing it right.

SLaPiNFuNK · #8 08-03-2006, 10:20 AM

damonsmith · #9 08-03-2006, 04:00 PM

I learned to pull with the shoulder. + 1 for Ken's advice. Although most competent players have a classical background at least in their studies, a serious jazz or other genre player should be able to get you though one of the accepted methods.
I learned from Bert Turetzky about pulling with the shoulders and it works great. I find I have to squeeze a bit to play Low "F" and the reast is my shoulder. Practice trills with your thumb off the neck. It does not happen in a day.

Johnny L · #10 08-03-2006, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Downie

Finally, several posters have recommended doing exercises with the thumb off the neck of the bass. Sounds like great advice, but first you have to be able to PLAY with the thumb off the neck and I still can't figure out how to do this in a standing position.

You won't be able to do that while standing without having some counter-force holding the bass up...like perhaps your knee on the back of the bass, or your shoulder holding the neck up.

Yeah people talk about arm weight a lot and it's certainly real and advantageous, but it can't be done without the bass being stable and able to stay stable with your fingers pressing down the strings.

Just think about thumb position and the various strategies people use to make that a do-able option...same thing but few people play first position with the thumb. Sometimes I try for laughs but then I give up and go back to working my scales.

KSB - Ken Smith · #11 08-03-2006, 04:34 PM

I deleted my eariler post due to the blunders mentioned. Sorry guys. I mis-read the first post and also mixed up two different profiles. Sorry, I must have been tired and missed the teacher thing and then clicked on the wrong name for the profile. I was just trying to be helpful.

If I have a problem playing wise, I find it difficult personally talking about it without actually being shown in person. Maybe others can learn this way but if you have a teacher and still seek advice I would be carefull what I do from reading on the 'net. Maybe you can get help and maybe you can get worse. I have had a few different teachers and usually I learned different things from each but each teacher was at a different period in time.

For fingering problems, I used to practice with my Thumb in the Air. That's right, no thumb at all. Balance the Bass anyway you need but remove the thumb and watch the little muscles in your fingers work. Your arm and shoulder might also get redirected by this excersice. Practice for me as not usually fun but the rewards make the pain worthwhile.

The arm shoulder thing is also useful for bowing with a loose wrist as well. Pull the tone not press or force it out.

damonsmith · #12 08-03-2006, 05:13 PM

I think all of us need to find our angles and our balance point with the bass. Once you do a lot falls into place.
My teacher told me to whatch bass players with similar body types and see what they did. I think that is great advice.

SLaPiNFuNK · #13 08-03-2006, 05:18 PM

ultimately, you do not want to use any strength to hold up the bass, and use as much of the bass's weigth to help you press the strings... Once you can do that, it doesnt take much energy to play...

damonsmith · #14 08-03-2006, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLaPiNFuNK

ultimately, you do not want to use any strength to hold up the bass, and use as much of the bass's weigth to help you press the strings... Once you can do that, it doesnt take much energy to play...

- I have seen people do that, it seemed to slow them down a bit. Still sounds better than squezzing. What I learned (from Turetzky) was get the bass balanced, I have the rear right corner touching my waiste, then pull with the shoulder.

Rob Downie · #15 08-03-2006, 10:32 PM

My stool/chair came today and I have been experimenting with playing both sitting and standing. This has helped me to put my finger (so to speak) on what is confusing me. When sitting, I seem to be PULLING on the strings-- i.e. my muscles are moving backwards, away from the fingerboard, towards my body, forcing my fingers down. When standing, with the bass vertical, I feel like I am PUSHING DOWN on the strings, like my muscles are moving forward, out from my body, and forcing my fingers into the fingerboard or, to say it differently, that I am forcing the strings into my fingers and my muscles are providing the necessary resistance. Each technique feels reasonably comfortable and appropriate for the way I am holding the instrument. So are the muscles used differently depending on the position of the body relative to the bass? My teacher says he thinks this is so, but his standing style is different than what most posters on this list have described (he angles the neck back to simulate the sitting position) so he can't confirm what I said about standing with the bass vertical from his own experience.