horizontal spiccato

[redbrickhut]

My horizontal spiccato is embarrassing.

It seems as though everything I try and do to fix it is useless. If anyone out there could suggest absolutely anything to help would be great. Cheers.

[jallenbass]

Originally Posted by redbrickhut

My horizontal spiccato is embarrassing.

It seems as though everything I try and do to fix it is useless. If anyone out there could suggest absolutely anything to help would be great. Cheers.

Horizontal spiccato? I don't think I understand.

[jneuman]

Originally Posted by redbrickhut

My horizontal spiccato is embarrassing.

It seems as though everything I try and do to fix it is useless. If anyone out there could suggest absolutely anything to help would be great. Cheers.

If you mean the brushy kind, as opposed to the harder vertical bounce, I learned how by playing relaxed detache on repeated notes and gradually increasing speed till the bow takes off on it's own. Notes around C on the A string are the easiest. Start up on the fingerboard till you get the hang of it. This kind of spiccato starts ON the string.
-Jon

[Johnny L]

The only person I've ever heard use the terms horizontal and vertical spiccato is Paul Ellison.

I can't remember which is which...one is playing off the string and the other is playing on the string but such that the bow is allowed to bounce naturally with those "on the string" strokes.

Of course playing on the string you're capable of bowing much faster than when you're off the string.

Yeah...it's like how jneuman describes it.

[Illfavor]

Originally Posted by jneuman

If you mean the brushy kind, as opposed to the harder vertical bounce, I learned how by playing relaxed detache on repeated notes and gradually increasing speed till the bow takes off on it's own. Notes around C on the A string are the easiest. Start up on the fingerboard till you get the hang of it. This kind of spiccato starts ON the string.
-Jon

That's interesting, because I actually have the most trouble with the A string in general. My brush stroke on the G and D is good and the E is satisfactory, but I have real trouble with doing it on the A. The most dramatic example is when I attempt to play the Trio from Beethoven's 5th Symphony. It just sounds like a big jumble of notes. Should I be using a different stroke for this (vertical?), or is there something incorrect with my positioning or technique? I've thought that I may be holding my bass too inward, forcing my to drop my arm too much to play on the A string because, in general, my ability to play fortissimo with a solid tone and my brush stroke on that string is unsatisfactory.

Also, how worried should one be about brushing against other strings lightly when playing a forte spiccato passage?

[Jeff Guevin]

Illfavor, just a shot in the dark, but is it possible you have a bit of "low-grade" wolf tone that's interefering with your bowing on the A string? I know that I've had a similar problem, where I'd unconsciously be changing my technique to compensate, and end up sounding sort of rough and clumsy.

[Illfavor]

It's possible. I switched strings and the problem didn't really change. It seems like it takes a ridiculous amount of effort and precision to stroke each note on that string in the specefic way that will make it sound properly, and even then, the tone leaves something to be desired.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Illfavor

...how worried should one be about brushing against other strings lightly when playing a forte spiccato passage?

I wonder if maybe your A string in general is too low and forcing you to be too gentle with it when you bow? If you've got it going on with the D and E string but not the A string, it does make me wonder this.

Are you brushing the other strings often when you bow A on the string too?

[Illfavor]

Originally Posted by Johnny L

I wonder if maybe your A string in general is too low and forcing you to be too gentle with it when you bow? If you've got it going on with the D and E string but not the A string, it does make me wonder this.

Are you brushing the other strings often when you bow A on the string too?

That may be it. I don't have any trouble brushing on the G D or E string, and even when I'm not trying to brush it's difficult to play a solid forte on the A without crossing a string. How do I go about raising the string?

[Jeff Guevin]

Originally Posted by Illfavor

How do I go about raising the string?

Before the experts jump in with a good answer, I'll tell you how I used to do it: fold up some plain old paper into a little rectangle (say about 1cm x .5cm), loosen string, tuck paper under string at the bridge, tighten string. Worked wonders for me for about two years.

[Illfavor]

Originally Posted by jguevin

Before the experts jump in with a good answer, I'll tell you how I used to do it: fold up some plain old paper into a little rectangle (say about 1cm x .5cm), loosen string, tuck paper under string at the bridge, tighten string. Worked wonders for me for about two years.

I've actually done that before to solve buzzing problem. Many thanks to everybody for the help!

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Illfavor

How do I go about raising the string?

Hey jguevin thanks for the paper tip that's pretty cool. If that doesn't get the string high enough Illfavor then you may have to go the luthier route...that is, of course, if the string really is too low and causing the grief for you and it isn't a technique issue (or it isn't contributing somehow to the problem regardless).

If you own the bass you might want to get it checked out by a luthier anyway and see if there are other problems going on there.

[Cory Palmer]

You might want to try a small piece of leather instead of paper. I used leather from an old shoe that my teacher had. Paper might work just as well though.

[Cory Palmer]

Originally Posted by Johnny L

The only person I've ever heard use the terms horizontal and vertical spiccato is Paul Ellison.

Jack Budrow also uses the terms horizontal and vertical spiccato. Horizontal spiccato is a longer stroke that doesn't come as high off the string. Vertical spiccato is very short and higher off the string.

Here is an exercise that I did for a while to get a better feel for spiccato. Start with the metronome at a slow tempo, around 80 would probably be good. Play with 2 beats to a bow, 1 beat to a bow, 1/2 a beat, and 1/4 of a beat. Gradually move the metronome up. Try to play everything on the string. Eventually the bow will come off naturally.

Here is a good exercise that I got from Paul Johnson. He calls this bubble therapy. Do this at whatever tempo is comfortable. Play with four notes to a beat. Starting with a legato stroke then gradually go into a floutando stroke than go into a staccato stroke (on the string) then go into a spiccato stroke (off the string). Try to go into the different strokes smoothly

[Stan Haskins]

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

Jack Budrow also uses the terms horizontal and vertical spiccato. Horizontal spiccato is a longer stroke that doesn't come as high off the string. Vertical spiccato is very short and higher off the string.

Here is an exercise that I did for a while to get a better feel for spiccato. Start with the metronome at a slow tempo, around 80 would probably be good. Play with 2 beats to a bow, 1 beat to a bow, 1/2 a beat, and 1/4 of a beat. Gradually move the metronome up. Try to play everything on the string. Eventually the bow will come off naturally.

Here is a good exercise that I got from Paul Johnson. He calls this bubble therapy. Do this at whatever tempo is comfortable. Play with four notes to a beat. Starting with a legato stroke then gradually go into a floutando stroke than go into a staccato stroke (on the string) then go into a spiccato stroke (off the string). Try to go into the different strokes smoothly

Oooh, this is good stuff . . . A violin playing professor once showed me what I think he called a "sautalee" stroke (excuse my misspelling and general ignorance) that sort of rolls off of the string, very short and quick, with a definite attack.

Does anyone have any good resources for learning all of these fancy bowstrokes? (e.g. what's "floutando"?)

[Cory Palmer]

Flautando is when the bow just brushes across the string. There is not much core to the sound.

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

Jack Budrow also uses the terms horizontal and vertical spiccato. Horizontal spiccato is a longer stroke that doesn't come as high off the string. Vertical spiccato is very short and higher off the string.

Ok thanks Cory...sorry I don't know who Jack Budrow is though

[Cory Palmer]

He teaches at Michigan State University right now. He was a member of the Houston Symphony when Ellison was principal. He was also principal of the North Carolina Symphony for a number of years. He still plays with the North Carolina Symphony as a sub.

[Illfavor]

I think I may need to go to a luthier. I went up to my school and practiced with about 3 different instruments and had absolutely no trouble getting the spiccato stroke while playing the Beethoven excerpt quickly, leading me to believe that the problem lies with my instrument or my string set.

A question about strings, when they're compared by their "gauge" like "High, Med, etc" does that have any relation to tension? I think my strings may be too loose.

[jneuman]

I don't know if this will help, but with the "horizontal" spiccato, the string keeps vibrating but you excite it at each stroke and keep it going so you don't want to stop the string when the bow hits it. It seems that the vertical kind is closer to a detache stoke where the string stops. I find that the A string is a good place to start since it will ring a little bit. A work of caution, this is easier with darker orchestra strings. Practice it everday for ever, and you will get it. For the vertical kind, I think basketball, and gradually combine short clean attacks with that.
-Jon