I don't get Simandl fingerings

[Bruce Lindfield]

All those books are easy to find on Amazon - e.g.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Method-D...3926506&sr=1-1

But as people have said - they are meant to be worked through with a teacher

[robobass]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

I would check out all of Hans Sturms YouTube videos for starters. Positions are all determined by harmonics in Rabbath-2nd is the G harmonic above the C note on the G string (fret 5 on an electric). 4th position is the same as thumb position and the G harmonic (fret 12 on an electric). 5th is the D harmonic on what would be fret 19 while 6th would be at the G harmonic above what would be fret 24.
It is totally applicable to an Eb neck.

I recently saw a master class by Hans Sturm. In my opinion he has an exceptionally sensible way to deal with all of this. I don't want to claim to have a full understanding of his method, but he seems to encourage you to look at a difficult passage and simply explore the possibilities, and understand the trade-offs between one fingering and another, and be able to use all techniques fluently.

I came up with Simandl. Although I found it pedantic from the beginning, I still use it as default when sight reading. It basically means that you use half steps between 1-2-4 up to thumb position, where you change to t-1-2-3 with thumb on the octave or octave+fifth harmonic, and in thumb position you can make whole steps between fingers. But! Simandl is not about thumb position. It's about having a solid approach to the lowest fifth of the fingerboard, and independent of tonality - what you need to play 99% of the orchestra repertoire effectively.

Positions mean nothing. It's just nomenclature. What matters is having a system where you can easily find the notes you need with accuracy and repeatability and in any key. On the lower part of the board Simandl will do that for you. In the book there will be excessive shifts, like moving from 1st finger on D on the G-string to C# with 2nd finger, when if would be a shorter shift to do 1-1. That really annoyed me as a student, but I think it is just a symptom of pedagogy.

From what I have seen I think that in broadest terms, Simandl is a great way to deal with the lowest fifth of the fingerboard, and Rabbath is probably a better way to go from there on up. I don't know, but I bet Hans Sturm would agree.

[bassist1962]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiUuI...feature=relmfu

This explains very basic Simandl & Rabbath methods - giving the positions for Rabbath.

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by robobass

... It's about having a solid approach to the lowest fifth of the fingerboard, and independent of tonality - what you need to play 99% of the orchestra repertoire effectively.

In the book there will be excessive shifts, like moving from 1st finger on D on the G-string to C# with 2nd finger, when if would be a shorter shift to do 1-1. That really annoyed me as a student, but I think it is just a symptom of pedagogy.

I agree with what you wrote.

Except about your example of excessive shift. Good positioning is about preparing one to where one is going, not easy come outs from where one has already been. Going up in pitch, 1-1 often works well, while 4-4 often does not. Going down in pitch, 4-4 often works well, while 1-1 often does not.

So to your example on the G string, with 1 of D (say because I just played an E with 4), to go to C# we have to ask, what is after C#? If we continue down to B or to A, 1-1 is not helping us, as it did not prepare us for the future. 1-2 is great if the next notes after C# is C-A, if the next note after C# is B then 1-4 would be even better. So D with 1, C# with 4, all on G string. Seems excessive, at first maybe, but planning ahead it is a great way to position. That's something I learned from my teacher and the Simandl method. (If the note after C# was a return to D, the 1-1-2 would work fine.)

The musical notes on those Simandl exercises don't really sound great as music, but those little fingering numbers above/below those notes are key to learning how to get around on the DB fingerboard, especially on the low notes near the nut, still the main reason why the DB is used.

As the music changes, the approach to the instrument changes too. People are doing all sorts of music things nowadays on the DB that were not often done 150 years ago.

[boylebass]

^^^ In Simandl, you never shift up 4-4 and never back 1-1.

I find the Simandl approach an excellent way to master the fingerboard. Rabbath works well for many. In any case, get thee a teacher and learn a system.

I play walking bass lines for hours on end and never (OK hardly ever) break the rules that Simandl taught me. This weekend I'll be playing Tchaikovsky (nutcracker, of course- cha-ching $$$$) and my part is marked with Simandl fingerings, 'specially that messed up phrase with all those silly double sharp grace notes. (Eb scale for the first half of the phrase, E scale for the 2nd half, countcountcount) I use the Simandl system when I play slab; it's easier than using a 'different' system.

The system works, as do many others. Find a system, get a teacher, and start practicing.

[robobass]

Originally Posted by longfinger

I agree with what you wrote.

Except about your example of excessive shift. Good positioning is about preparing one to where one is going, not easy come outs from where one has already been. ...

I absolutely agree. Don't go D-C#-A with 1-1-1 or something instead of 1-4-1, but I seem to remember examples where you were doing something like D-C#-D-E with 1-2-1-4. There seems to be a distaste for shifting to the same finger you were just on, even when that would minimize the # and distance of shifts. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, though, or I learned on an edition which wasn't true to the original. I've heard that the International edition, for example, has slightly different fingerings than the Fischer.

[powerbass]

From my humble Simandl studies I agree w/Longfinger - shifting is relative to where you were and where you are going. So in that regard it challenges the student to sight read ahead and plan on efficient fingering choices. I am a relative beginner, after two years I'm on page 46 (I've been doing jazz studies as well). After page 50 or so the book focuses on minor scales and then there are the Etudes. As the book progresses the exercises become more musical. My teacher also stresses duple fingering where you play at least two notes before shifting, this allows for some anchoring with one finger. I find my classical studies very challenging in a positive way - Simandl et all have worked out systems that dial in intonation, shifting etc. It all just takes practice, practice..