Improving time during a solo

[hdiddy]

Here's my problem: oftentimes when I solo, I'll try to phrase something and then I'll get an idea that I want to get out, but what ends up happening the idea gets phrased but I'll end up late. This occurs especially when the phrase has some syncopation based on the dotted quarter note or something. While executing it, I feel like the phrase is in time but once it's done I'll lose my place (or 1 for that matter). By far, this is my biggest weakness.

When I practice with a playalong at home, things somehow seem fine. It's when I play with other peops that this gets exhibited. The problem is exacerbated if I'm trying to play a tune that I don't know. I guess keeping up with the song and soloing at the same time can be a little too much for me at the moment.

As part of my assignments right now I'm transcribing some walking lines and along with that also practicing rhythmic accents while doing handclaps just to get a psycho-physical feel for accents. The handclaps I guess are similar to rhythmic hits a drummer would do. I guess it's an attempt to internalize the feel (which I probably don't have yet).

EDIT: I should also add that I'm finally getting over the egostistical issue of trying to overplay, at least in terms of phrasing. I'm concentrating more on trying to make simple, swinging, concrete phrases, but I guess the rhythm is the last thing that's lacking.

So can you guys suggest ways of improving my internal clock? I dont' have problems with swinging. I often get comments that my swing is good and I have a good feel, but I know it's only when I'm walking and a little bit when I'm playing a broken 2-feel.

I kinda have a feeling that my question has an obvious answer but I guess I'm looking for something really effective, I guess on par with FOGHORN's "Really learning a tune" thread. That would be nice.

[TomSauter]

In my opinion, nothing will help you more than playing with a really good drummer. I used to always assume that I was the one messing up the time when things got weird, but later I realized that the crappy dudes I was playing with were responsible sometimes too. It seems like drummers are always trying to play beyond their means and they always think they're right!
Also, there's no shame in working out a tough rhythmic pattern until you can actually feel where beat 1 is. Since you used dotted quarters as an example, just get used to playing 2 straight measures of dotted quarters, and when you're comfortable with that, try 4 bars, etc. It gets hard fast. I did a lesson with Bob Hurst a few years ago and he told me to write out a whole chorus of blues using only dotted quarters and then play it against a metronome on 1 and 3 or something straight like that so I could hear where the downbeats of each measure are in relation to what I was playing. The key for me was to be able to not feel the dotted quarters as a new tempo.

[Phil Smith]

"Knowing" the tune i.e. having it clear as a bell in your head will definitely help this and will enable you to become impervious to distratction by mice and other animals running across your feet and drummers that are using your time instead of their own or trying to anticipate wrongly where you are going rhythmically.

[Ed Fuqua]

It's all part of the same thing. I would work less with a play along (because you can basically do ANYTHING and the tune keeps chugging along) and work more with the nome. There's another exercise I've posted (most recently in the ODD TIME JAZZ thread, a few months back) that reduces the notes you play to 3 eighth notes and works you through starting the phrase on every eighth note in the bar. I can go over it again if you don't find it.

I would disagree with Tom, you don't rely on anybody else for the time, YOU generate the time/feel that pulls everybody in like it's a black hole. I agree with Phil in that if you keep the melody in your head at ALL TIMES, it's next to impossible to get lost or "off phrase". It's those times that I lose the melody that following the line gets me into a space where I can't hear where I am. The REALLY LEARNING thread is what has helped with that aspect.

[Jeff Guevin]

I sometimes have problems like hdiddy describes.

Originally Posted by TomSauter

The key for me was to be able to not feel the dotted quarters as a new tempo.

...and that describes one of the most common causes: either I or the drummer play some sort of polyrhythmic / hemiolic figure, and my brain "switches" to the new "tempo", and suddenly I'm lost.

I don't have a great method for dealing with this, but I try to make it a habit, when listening to records, to make sure I really understand what's going on when things get "out." Some of my favorites for that are any number of tunes by Miles' 2nd quintet, Wynton's Standard Time 1, and Wayne's Beyond the Sound Barrier. Indian classical's pretty good, too, especially since a lot of it is in seven or ten or what-have-you.

[hdiddy]

No, I think Ed's right. As much as I would love to blame the drummer, I know it's me. Everybody else gives me a weird stare if I get a little lost, including the drummer.

Tom, your idea of writing a solo using dotted quarters is an excellent. I recently attended a composition workshop led by Taylor Eigsti and he recommended composing tunes with concepts that you suck the most at. I didn't think about applying the same concept to my soloing. I will have to give that a try. The handclaps that I'm doing are ok, but they don't seem so effective which makes me want to find alternatives like what you proposed.

Ed, thinking about it now, I think you're right about the playalongs. I do mess up if I play against the 'nome. I do fine against the playalongs. It's frustrating. It takes me a bit to try to find 1 again.

I tried looking for something under "Odd Meter Jazz" but only found this, which probably isn't what you were thinking of and has no tips on what to do. Could you please post your concept again?

[kayakbass]

Metronome, metronome, metronome. When you practice try setting the click at half the tempo of the tune. Then count yourself in with the click being your 2 and 4. Swing your 1/4's and 1/8's over that. It's a tougher way to practice and it's VERY effective. Another point, BREATHING! Too many times I find myself, my peers and my students holding their breath while "thinking" through the changes. This starves the brain and muscles of oxygen and results in lapses in time and also cramps and muscle fatigue. These things should help you ease the anxiety of seeing something "new".

[TroyK]

Alright, I'm no authority figure here, but I've stuggled with that and feel like it's not the problem for me now that it used to be.

I agree that you shouldn't rely on the drummer or anyone for time, especially in your solo. Crappy ones sure can mess you up, though by "following you" or trying to decipher what you are playing and moving the time to you. If you don't quite nail the pattern, but the drummer stays steady, you can leave some space and keep going with your solo and it just sounds like a choice, if he is slipping around with the time, things get weird. Talk to him if you think that is happening, record the gig and listen to it together to see if it is you or him or both and work it or stop playing with him. Seriously.

Drummers also sometime look at the quietness and the space of a bass solo as an opportunity to put some of their chops on display, experiment. If the two of you are not really good, this can be a distraction for you, him and the audience. Talk to him.

For me, I agree that it's about the melody. If I can keep it going in time in my head, what I play may be interesting or less than interesting, but it's "right" and I'm not straying from the time. Nothing else particularly works for me, except maybe outlining the changes, which is much less artistic.

If you find yourself playing things that you can't quite pull off on the gig, then you're probably not ready to be playing them on the gig. Keep shedding them.

Also for me, one day it occured to me that I had to start practicing improvising. I know that sounds stupid, but I was learning tunes, learning the heads, the changes, etc. But I had to sit in the basement and "solo" by myself over a tune to get any ideas worked out on it. With a metronome, with a record, transcribe, all of that. Except playalongs. Nothing against them, I've just never used them.

Take that for what it's worth. There are better sources than me on the subject.

Troy

[hdiddy]

I was poking around on the Jazzschool website and ran into this. Time Awareness for All Musicians by Peter Erskine. Have any of you seen it?

[hdiddy]

Thanks for responding Troy, and thank you to everyone else who have thus far as well.

Originally Posted by TroyK

Drummers also sometime look at the quietness and the space of a bass solo as an opportunity to put some of their chops on display, experiment. If the two of you are not really good, this can be a distraction for you, him and the audience. Talk to him.

No it's not just the drummer as I've said before. He wasn't doing anything while I was messing up. I know I have a big part to blame. I thinking that I listen to the drummer/metronome as a frame of reference where I am. When I launch into a tough phrase, I go into my internal rhythm. Once I come out of the phrase, I'm putting some space in between while getting my bearings. So when this issue happens, I come out expecting to be on target but I'm not and I know it when the next downbeat hits. It's somewhere in my phrasing thats skewing things.

For me, I agree that it's about the melody. If I can keep it going in time in my head, what I play may be interesting or less than interesting, but it's "right" and I'm not straying from the time. Nothing else particularly works for me, except maybe outlining the changes, which is much less artistic.

If you find yourself playing things that you can't quite pull off on the gig, then you're probably not ready to be playing them on the gig. Keep shedding them.

But that's a luxury we don't always have. For instance, I had a session a few days ago and we were playing RC's "Little Waltz" and I was all over the place. In 3, trying to stay in the form, phrasing, and trying to keep my phrasing in time was a bit much for me to handle.

Also for me, one day it occured to me that I had to start practicing improvising. I know that sounds stupid, but I was learning tunes, learning the heads, the changes, etc. But I had to sit in the basement and "solo" by myself over a tune to get any ideas worked out on it. With a metronome, with a record, transcribe, all of that.

Hrm yeah, it definitely makes it alot easier when you've had a chance to prepare. I dont' have timing issues if it's a song I know better. I can keep better track of the melody as well with familiar tunes. But again, it doesn't help in foreign territory and I feel like my time needs to be consistently solid, no matter the situation.

[Menacewarf]

What if you limit your phrasing to it's relation to the beat. So when you practice certain phrases its like, " Heres the beat...short rest...now my phrase... rest...beat." In other words consider first the beat and then your phrase. Have you tried this?

Maybe listin to some gypsy stuff to hear soloing over very strong, steady rythms.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by MANICDWARF

What if you limit your phrasing to it's relation to the beat. So when you practice certain phrases its like, " Heres the beat...short rest...now my phrase... rest...beat." In other words consider first the beat and then your phrase. Have you tried this?

Erm, that's pretty much how I solo. I try to get a sorta syncopated leap into my phrases by not starting on the 1. Usually I'll start on the "and" of 1 or maybe even on the 2nd beat. I'll sync up with the next downbeat to lead to the next phrase. But that's what I'm talking about, by the time I'm waiting for the next downbeat, I'm late cuz it already happened.

[Michael Case]

You mentioned that it happens on tunes your not familiar with correct? Well maybe you should just play unfamiliar tunes in your comfort zone rhythmically speaking. It probably has more to do with not hearing your idea in relation to the unfamiliar tune.
Just a thought.

[Damon Rondeau]

I've very recently been trying something out with soloing -- namely, playing about one quarter of the ideas that I'm hearing. I play too many d*mn notes. So I'm doing stuff like letting a bar or two go by, playing two or three notes where I would previously stuff the bar full of eighth notes, stuff like that. What I'm consciously trying to is RELAX and HEAR IT. It's early days with this but guess what? I can see that little rhythmic lick coming now from a bar away; before I was much more likely to not see it coming until it was practically under my fingers -- at which point I'd clam it and lose the flow.

Also I've been working a fair bit with the nome set to one beat per bar -- I fire up Cubase and set a different click if I'm ambitious and want to play something slower than 160 bpm (my 'nome only goes down to 40 bpm.) I find that it's way too easy to get a groove going with 2 or 4 clicks per bar. Fewer clicks forces you to hear and feel internally those missing clicks.

[damonsmith]

One thing I would say, is feel free to stop after a phrase let a few beats even a bar go by and start again.
I am in between Ed and Tom: I think we should be able to keep our own time BUT, if I have to think about it/focus on it I don't need a drummer splashing around and getting in the way.
A great drummer should allow you to focus on other aspects of music, if not I'd rather not have one.

I would also add that practicing wiht the metronome on all four beats can be a lot more helpful than most peopel think.

[flatback]

So much depends on who you are playing with. I remember asking Dave Holland about how he delt with instrumentalists who overplayed/got in his way/tripped up his soloing...he said he doesn't play with that kind of musician. At forst I thought, "Oh great, thats just the advice I need, pretty soon I'll be playing by myself ALL the time" But after a while I started thinking Its really up to me to tell drummers and pianists to get the hell outta the way when there is a bass solo, cause they can so easily mess up your train of thought...Actually what they generally mess up is your breathing spaces, which in turn can make you feel like rushing or playing continuously, both of which contribute to the problems you mention. Charlie Haden is famous for saying, " I got it," to drummers and compers, meaning "shut the **** up so I can hear myself" But you gotta really keep the time if you are going to do that.

[TomSauter]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

One thing I would say, is feel free to stop after a phrase let a few beats even a bar go by and start again.
I am in between Ed and Tom: I think we should be able to keep our own time BUT, if I have to think about it/focus on it I don't need a drummer splashing around and getting in the way.
A great drummer should allow you to focus on other aspects of music, if not I'd rather not have one.

I would also add that practicing wiht the metronome on all four beats can be a lot more helpful than most peopel think.

I never said anything about relying on the drummer for the time. I was saying exactly what you're saying--a great drummer makes it easy to execute your ideas, and they will complement you, and a bad drummer gets in the way.

Flatback-your Dave Holland experience reminded me of a funny story. I'll PM it to you.

[jallenbass]

Do you record your gigs? There may be a small peculiarity in your bandmates' playing that is tripping you up without you realizing it. Once I know what to expect from those that I play with then it's not a problem.

When you get turned around does it turn the band around? If that's the case then a few more people need to be a little more grounded in the time.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by jallenbass

Do you record your gigs? There may be a small peculiarity in your bandmates' playing that is tripping you up without you realizing it. Once I know what to expect from those that I play with then it's not a problem.

When you get turned around does it turn the band around? If that's the case then a few more people need to be a little more grounded in the time.

Funny you should ask that. I brought something to record with, set it to record, paused it, and never unpaused it for the entire session. Pretty smart eh?

It's possible, I don't know. I'll record myself the next time and let you know. I have a gig tomorrow so I'll try to record it. But you guys bring up an interesting point. I remember distinctly thinking to myself that I didn't exactly like how i was being comped as I started my solo. I felt like the chordal comper was either not supporting me the way I wanted or was playing too much. But I can't think of a clear way of expressing what I wanted, so maybe it was better if I told him to lay out. Still I think I was also trying to play phrases that were beyond my ability as times. I'll definitely record my next sessions.

[bnutz]

Hdiddy, I struggle with the exact same issue while soloing. Previous posts have given suggestions that I've used that really helped.

The first was Phil's suggestion about really being familiar with the tune. When I am reaching on a solo, or even playing a difficult passage of a tune I sometimes notice things get fishy time-wise. The better I know a tune the more likely I will be to stop concentrating so hard on what I think I should be doing or what I want to do and just play what I'm hearing. Obviously mentronome practice is a must, too.

Recording gigs (and even practice sessions) is a huge part of my practice regimen. I usually listen to it as soon as I can after the gig. It's a great way to hear what works, what doesn't, what deserves developing, etc.

I've also had to deal with drummers/percussionists/guitarists/
pianists who don't seem to be on the same planet while I'm taking a solo, but one way I've been able to help get things back on the same page is to play off what others are doing. If a guitarist is playing a really annoying rhythm, mimic it and make it part of the tune. Same thing with a drummer who's too busy.

I'm not saying that you're guilty of this, but I found that when I got more out of my own head, and concentrated less on what I wanted to do and focused more on the music that was being made at that moment, remarkably my own playing got better. And, after all, think of your favorite jazz recordings- If they're anything like mine, they're the records where everyone is part of the same conversation.

-b