Intonation=DEATH

[Rugdoctor]

Hey guys

I've been playing upright for almost a year now and I feel like my intonation isn't where it's supposed to be. I practice everyday for an hour only on intonation. Depending on which day either all 12 major or minor scales in 3 octaves and then in 3rds. Most of the time I practice with a drone but not always.

My question is how do you guys work on intonation? I'm starting to feel like I'm hitting a wall with my current technique. I've heard of vomits and using a tuner but isn't that just tuning with your eyes? The tactile aspect has to be there and I assume that's what using a tuner is for for some players but I feel like it's more important to have a better ear than muscle memory?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

[Ed Fuqua]

I've found the big thing is expectation of pitch. Maybe back off on the tempo when you are doing scale work and arpeggio work and really HEAR what the next note is supposed to sound like before you actually sound it on your instrument.

[tww001]

In addition to what Ed said about slowing down and hearing what you want, perhaps you should try limiting your self to one scale a day. Use a drone, sing the scale very slowly before you play it, then play it, play it in thirds, fourths, fifths, etc. Vomits are excellent for intonation, because you're teaching your self how to hear the pitch sliding into place, rather than jumping and reaching for a note. Best of luck!

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Rugdoctor

I've heard of vomits and using a tuner but isn't that just tuning with your eyes? The tactile aspect has to be there and I assume that's what using a tuner is for for some players but I feel like it's more important to have a better ear than muscle memory?

a) WELCOME to the club.

b) I've always found it difficult to play in tune with a vacuum. (Yes, my bowing sounds like a vacuum cleaner. Very funny.) I want to play in tune WITH something. Sometimes that something has been a tuner. Sometimes a record. Sometimes an open string. A fine player who posts around here gave me this CD of drones and scales; it was great. Whatever. Tape down a note on a garage-sale keyboard.

c) I started to say, "The bow is a critical tool for developing intonation." Yes, some people don't use it, and yes, my intonation totally blows chunks and particles so what do I know. But even so, in my utterly worthless opinion, "The bow is a critical tool for developing intonation."

Fundamentally, people poke at the intonation of some of the finest musicians ever to pick up the double-bass. It's just a long study and a constant battle. And then you play with SOMEBODY ELSE and you're all fornicated again!

[Blueszilla]

Pure dogma Sam! Brutally lucid...

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by Rugdoctor

Hey guys

I've been playing upright for almost a year now and I feel like my intonation isn't where it's supposed to be. I practice everyday for an hour only on intonation. Depending on which day either all 12 major or minor scales in 3 octaves and then in 3rds. Most of the time I practice with a drone but not always.

My question is how do you guys work on intonation? I'm starting to feel like I'm hitting a wall with my current technique. I've heard of vomits and using a tuner but isn't that just tuning with your eyes? The tactile aspect has to be there and I assume that's what using a tuner is for for some players but I feel like it's more important to have a better ear than muscle memory?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

All practice is really intonation practice, the question is can you recognise that youre out of tune with a tempered scale?

Singing/aural training with a piano really helps to sharpen up youre sense of pitch, so whenever youre playing a piece of music you intuitively adjust your pitch while youre practicing.

Specific time spent on intonation doesnt seem very time-efficient.

[fdeck]

I find that my intonation and general technique are intimately related. My intonation improves when I focus on playing with correct technique. Likewise, when I notice that I am playing a particular note in a passage out of tune, it is almost always due to my being sloppy with technique in that passage. My routine is to slow down, watch my left hand, and try to figure out the root cause.

The bow has helped me with intonation.

[endorka]

In my experience...

It is very easy on this instrument to do a lot but learn little. Don't spread yourself too thinly; daily practice works best when you focus only on those scales that pertain to the piece you are currently working on. Work out fingerings that will be of direct use to that piece.

Do the scales very slowly with the bow, playing along with a pre-recorded version of the scales such as those found here;

http://doublebassblog.org/2006/11/do...ctice-and.html

A drone can be helpful, but it is nowhere near as objective as the above.

Jennifer

[Paul Warburton]

This will sound odd, at best.
Have you ever thought of practicing without actually practicing? Not just intonation.....anything.
I'm hopelessly involved in some new ideas about this. It's a wonderful new look at music and life. (only new to me because I already knew it but didn't know I knew it until I read "The Music Lesson" by Victor Wooten, "Effortless Mastery" by Kenny Werner and "Musicophilia" by neurologist Oliver Sacks. Google "Your brain on music" and "Your brain on jazz" for further info on how your brain can do some stuff for you with little effort on your part. It does involve your ears as a conduit.
Good luck. Have fun.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I've found the big thing is expectation of pitch. Maybe back off on the tempo when you are doing scale work and arpeggio work and really HEAR what the next note is supposed to sound like before you actually sound it on your instrument.

This. If it's not in tune in your mind's ear, it won't be in tune in your external ones either.

[Mark Perna]

I think every good bassist has their own way of dealing with this issue. Ultimately, I think it is mostly a mental process.

I do all of the routine scale and arpeggio stuff. Double stops are a great way to get your fingers into the right places because if they aren't in the right places, you get immediate (and aurally painful) feedback. Double stops against open strings are the obvious first step but you don't have to limit yourself to that.

I also do visualization exercises. Before I even touch the instrument, I run the fingerboard down in my mind. Getting it together mentally really helps with the physical.

Also, I like working through pieces like the Bach Cello Suites which are fun to play but also you can really hear when you're out of tune. It really forces you to get your intonation together. Whenever I feel like my intonation is didgy, the first thing I do is grab the Cello Suites and work on them for an hour or so. It usually does the trick for me.

Intonation is one of those things that every bassist struggles with though. I have a bootleg of the Miles Davis Kind of Blue sessions. I always thought that those tunes were first takes but they really weren't. The takes on the album might the first complete takes of each but they had numerous false starts on each tune; some of which were pretty scarily bad. Tonight, I was listening to the various false starts on So What and Paul Chambers ruined a couple of takes because he was horribly out of tune. Paul Chambers! The man and the legend. One of the mighty pillars of jazz bassdom. In fact, his intonation isn't the greatest on the intro of the released take. So if Paul isn't in tune all of the time, you really can't expect us lesser mortals to be either. You just do the best you can and never stop working on it. Strive for perfection but accept that you're never really going to get there. And be immediately suspect of any bassist who tells you he has good intonation.

mark

[ole Jason]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

c) I started to say, "The bow is a critical tool for developing intonation." Yes, some people don't use it, and yes, my intonation totally blows chunks and particles so what do I know. But even so, in my utterly worthless opinion, "The bow is a critical tool for developing intonation."

I agree with this.

[damonsmith]

I have been playing for 15 years or so and I don't feel like mine is where it should be.
Practice out of Simandl with the bow - it helped Mingus, Paul Chambers and Ray Brown and it will help you.

[chris dammann]

i feel like the better ones ear and intonation gets-- the more often one feels like there out of tune. I play more in tune then i did a year ago but feel like I play out of tune more than i did then. if your noticing it, your on the right track.

[Treyzer]

Originally Posted by calivox

I think every good bassist has their own way of dealing with this issue. Ultimately, I think it is mostly a mental process................

You just do the best you can and never stop working on it. Strive for perfection but accept that you're never really going to get there. And be immediately suspect of any bassist who tells you he has good intonation.

mark

Very well said....

[Steve Clark]

Thanks for the insights in this thread. Still being relatively new to the DB I realize it is a life long pursuit to play in tune. Thanks for posting Jason Heath link for scales. That will be useful to me. I have a joke with myself these days: In first position I sound like Ray Brown (not really but bear with me ) and once I get past D/Eb F on the G I sound like . . . ME!

[ee-san]

Playing along with some slow ballad recordings helps me. I try not to listen to the bass on the recording so I can concentrate on the other instruments to know how my note fits in context. This is all about hearing, of course, as has been discussed previously. And, hey, you get to learn a few tunes in the process. On the technical side, the bow helps one hear the center of the pitch because of the stronger overtones and more control over the length of the note. In the left hand, good fingering technique helps intonation. Awkward shifts or string crossings increase the probability of being off pitch.

[wineaux]

This is an informative thread. Last night, per Paul's recommendation above, I downloaded Victor's book and will take it with me to bluegrass camp next week! (You should see the looks the 53-year-old boss gets around the office when he says he's going to music camp!).

I'm also going to take my bow. I've gotten used to it as an intonation aid. I might not use it much in the classes, but I'll definitely warm up with it. And at some jam session, I just might reach for it! We'll see what my ear and my brain tell me to do!

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by chris dammann

i feel like the better ones ear and intonation gets-- the more often one feels like there out of tune. I play more in tune then i did a year ago but feel like I play out of tune more than i did then. if your noticing it, your on the right track.

+1. In most cases someone without an ear for music won't be interested in it. In most cases I have seen it is much more a matter of getting the hand and body to make the subtle movements required to accurately locate pitches on the double bass.
Obviously, ear training is always a good idea and most often it is a matter of using and trusting your ear.

The most important things are A. not to neglect any of the facilities it takes to play the (bass, ear, mind, body, instrument) and B. not to spend more time on the areas where your strengths lie. In other words when "practicing" starts to sound good it becomes "playing".
We all like music, but playing concerts for yourself is just not going to make you progress like sawing away at something you cannot yet do.

[damonsmith]

Another thing worth noting is who you are playing with and how they are tuned. If you are playing in a long term project check the intonation on unison lines, etc. It may surprise you that it isn't always you. If you are doing an important project with a piano spring for getting the damn thing tuned!
I played a beautiful gig this Sunday with good friend I often play with on piano, after the gig he asked if I noticed he had the piano tuned - what I noticed was that it was very comfortable playing both supportive and solo arco lines, so that says a lot IMO.
I guess the point of this post is that we don't need any help playing out of tune so try to check out the negative outside influences.

If you insist on tuning to the piano, check several other notes besides the tuning A, that one A may not have anything to do with the rest of the notes on it.
I find my bass works best at A 440, unless it is a group decision for a higher A, I prefer to adjust to weird notes in the moment.