Intonation

[Samie]

I have been having some problems with intonation, specially on life performances where you really cant hear yourself well. I usually end up just playing open positions and stick with that. I already play Jazz en the EB, so its frustrating me quite a bit.

Youtubing I found jason contrabass converstions and I was blown away. Specially with Hans Sturm's Virtual classes, amazing stuff, priceless insite on something I already heard about but never actually realize its power. The key for me is to develop a system that lets you be secure of the note right from the start of your learning process.

I have got pretty big hands, I already know my wide scale patterns on the EB, so its perfect for me.

Where do I start, do I get a DVD? get some books? order online? Is there a usergroup for this system? please tell me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54pMdTCmo8g

PD.

Notice that I have not mentioned the R method nor the S method. Is not really about that. I do think that S is a great system, I just think its more advanced and specific. I will finish it later.

check out
http://www.doublebassblog.org/2006/1...mparative.html

[charlespf]

well, I wouldn't bother buying any dvds or anything, I think what has always helped me on intonation is practicing with a bow, and learning your positions, which, honestly, I believe either Simandl books or a private teacher would be best for. Your left hand is really running a pretty mechanical operation a lot of the time, you just need to get a good feel for the fingerboard, and how certain positions feel and sound.

[Samie]

Originally Posted by charlespf

well, I wouldn't bother buying any dvds or anything, I think what has always helped me on intonation is practicing with a bow, and learning your positions, which, honestly, I believe either Simandl books or a private teacher would be best for. Your left hand is really running a pretty mechanical operation a lot of the time, you just need to get a good feel for the fingerboard, and how certain positions feel and sound.

I do have a teacher (did anyways, simandl method) and I do practice with a bow a lot. But I also play live a lot. I need to get up and downthe fret board, cause I already know the notes, scales, patterns from EB.

Sure, I have no problem going up or down on G string, even on D and G, but I like to use all strings, all the time.

On the other hand, just by watching these videos, I am now able to drop down R. 3 position with absolute security, easy for me to understand the patterns, I feel at home. I am even using some of those concepts on my freetless. Eventually I will go back to simandl.

I was just wondering if there was a rabbath user group somewhere.

thanks

[damonsmith]

The "I've-got-big-hands-and-know-the-fingerboard-from-bass-guitar" thing is folly, there is one born everyday who thinks this will work out - it won't.
If you want to get your intonation together get with a good teacher who has a working knowledge of the proven methods, Simandl and Rabbath being two of them.
If not just keep doing what you are doing, don't waste time with dvds and all that.

[Samie]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

The "I've-got-big-hands-and-know-the-fingerboard-from-bass-guitar" thing is folly, there is one born everyday who thinks this will work out - it won't.
If you want to get your intonation together get with a good teacher who has a working knowledge of the proven methods, Simandl and Rabbath being two of them.
If not just keep doing what you are doing, don't waste time with dvds and all that.

That is exactly what I am trying to do, finding info o a new methods.

I am not sure why your are making such a negative lecture of my post. I study but I also play live. Just looking for alternatives, for solutions. I am just asking ?

I am way ahead of what I would be if I only studied clasical with my teacher. At home its fine, but live, were i dont here myself all that well. It gets hard, feel unsecure. Sure I stick to position I and go up and down the G, string. Eventually in a couple of years I might master the whole neck.

So I shouldnt ask around for alternatives?

I saw something new, thought it was interesting, just want more info on it. just that. NOt a R vs. S debate. Not even a Teacher vs self teaching debate.

I really have not found a good web site where I can get more info. Nop, have not found a rabbath teacher who can anwser my questions.

If anyone teaches rabbath, can u pm? or tell me. I want more info.

NOt a debate, again.

[Eric Swanson]

No debating here...I'll just share my experience. None with DVD's, so that's that.

I think of my left hand/arm as a typewriter printing ball, like on the old IBM Selectric (remember those?). There are micro moves (within any position) and macro moves. My left arm moves like a "carriage", shifting positions, with the hand held ready-to-play/type (the typewriter "ball").

I got my intonation together (and keep it together) with double stops within each position (arco) and shifting. I also practice singing/shifting intervals up and down all strings, on ALL FINGERS (singly)and with all double stop combinations. Fifths, thirds, etc., shifting up and down minor/major thirds, fourths, fifths, etc. None of this is original...it all came from my teachers.

I have spent the most time with whole steps, minor/major thirds, and fourths; the buidling blocks of scales/arpeggios. I practice singing/shifting up and down, staying on each shift until my body remembers the feel. Doing octaves (and beyond) develops a certain fearlessness that is nice, too.

If you are a relatively new DB player, you may consider leaving extension (EB) fingerings out of the mix for now. While they are widely used by many players (me too) it can add a whole new set of variables and muscular memories to learn. Even though I started on 'cello and EB, I learned DB with Simandl fingerings, then added extension fingering later.

We all can suffer from not being able to hear ourselves. In orchestra, sometimes it can feel as if you are just waving your arms around. Never mind the lousy amplified sound in most clubs/halls.

The other key concept for me re: playing in tune is singing into the fingerboard. Somehow, we find the notes more naturally and accurately when we "sing" through our arms/hands. It also reduces my tension/fear (another idea from my teachers, better players than me).

So, the short version of this is I practice both micro and macro moves and sing into the fingerboard. I remember that sound is motion and that a relaxed, accurate motion begets a clear, pleasing sound.

The only other thing that might be relevant is that I usually use two amps if I am playing loudly enough where hearing myself will be an issue...my little Polytone pointed at me and the drummer and my "rig" pointing out to the house. Gives me control over hearing myself, with independently adjustable volume levels.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Samie

That is exactly what I am trying to do, finding info o a new methods.

I am not sure why your are making such a negative lecture of my post.

I think people just want to emphasise that there are no tricks or shortcuts - it's just about putting the time in on practice and getting feedback from a teacher.

So - nothing you can write in a forum like this, will replace any of that.

[Jason Sypher]

Damon is right though maybe his post seems on the harsh side. DVD's are fine, in fact, there is a lot of useful stuff free on YouTube that can inspire you to change up something in your practice regiment to improve your playing. But books and DVD's alone will lead you halfway there at best. You will be able to do the exercise at home but will be confounded why you can't do it anywhere else or for anyone else without it sounding terrible. We've all heard "man, I do this perfectly at home". Believe me, I've said it myself. But if that is your experience then it's clear you are not really getting it. Our intonation should be good even if we can't hear ourselves very well. What? If we can't hear ourselves you say, how the h*ll are we supposed to do that. Well, if you study with a teacher you actually learn how to not only hear intonation but feel intonation. You can feel when the instrument is working in harmony and when it is not. You don't even really have to hear it. Plus,if you've done the work (preferably something tried and true, Simandl, Lille, etc) you will know what is going wrong when things inevitably do. Intonation is a note to note, day to day issue. It never goes away. And in my opinion, you can forget your electric bass patterns for now. Even if you end up using the same pattern on the upright, the thinking will be totally different because there are new issues that arise when playing an electric pattern on the upright i.e. string height, string tension, evenness of sound, body position etc. Most patterns on electric feel about the same all the way up the neck, not so with the upright. For example, playing a G major scale across the neck on an upright has a whole different vibe and sound than playing it up the g exclusively. Anyway, you get it. The upright is a totally different instrument and should be addressed as such. Inspire yourself with any kind of material you might find but you need a really solid foundation so that you can utilize those materials to best effect.
Good luck, and don't get put off by solid advice by people who have been to the mountain and back...we're all in this together.

[fingers]

As usual Jason is the voice of reason. Great post. He is a very accomplished player as is Damon and others. Take all this advice seriously.

I came from EB and have freakishly large hands. When I was headed to college I was sure that I was going to revolutionize how people play the bass. My teacher quietly taught me Simandl. I gradually began to realize that my intonation was more consistent, my sound was bigger, and my arms hurt less when I used Simandl. Now, as a pro, I use Simandlish fingering for DB and just view EB as a totally different animal. I'm not sure what kind of gigs you do but jazz gigs often last several hours. Anything you can do to make them easier on your body, without sacrificing sound or feel, is important.

[mheintz]

For method books: See http://www003.upp.so-net.ne.jp/ultra...methodeie.html

A good resource. Petracchi is a good supplement to Simandl and Rabbath.

On the home vs. live issue, try playing scales and études in the dark. The issue may be that you are relying on visual cues to aid in shifts when playing at home.

[Samie]

Thanks everyone for their input, sorry I wasnt able to express my self correctly. Certainly I am not looking for shortcuts. Maybe in the US is diferent, I have/had a clasical trained teacher with many years experience. He has come a couple of times to our jazz jams, to watch! no sheet music, no playing.

I am studying, I am learning, specially arco and stuff, we left off a little over half way simandl before the summer. Sure, but I had been playing TPosition long before the sumer. Daily 2 octave scales round the circle etc. I also play other stuff with the arco, jazz melodies in tp.

So I had been looking for a different aproach, these looked promesing, made sense to me.

I do apreciate each and every advice from all of you guys. I dont know if I will have much luck finding a teacher here. I might have to go to a store and actually get volume one.

All this talking and I dont even know if its what a I am looking for. Just lookin for info on it. lol

Clasical training here burns out lots of great players. I see that must of you teacher do play live, jazz, bluegrass whatever. Not always the case here in spain. Maybe I am mistaken, again.

thanks

If

[damonsmith]

Classical training is just the fastest and surest way to learn the fingerboard. If we are playing any music that uses the Western 12 half steps the notes are all in the same place.
Classical training IS the shortcut, the easy way. Many of my European friends do not like the classical tradition, obviously it is heavier over there than it is here.
Also, be careful of using extended fingering, pivots, etc in jazz, as you can hurt yourself.

[Jason Sypher]

The fact that you are seeking shows strength not weakness. Sometimes threads unravel (sorry) and the original intent gets twisted around. I think you should be able to find a teacher in Madrid of all places. Are you really looking? I should think that you could find not only a classical cat but also someone who is also unconventional, creative, insightful and artistic. I know you can solve this dilemma and your intonation can be markedly improved in six months. Just get out there and find some help. Let us all know what you find!

[Samie]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

The fact that you are seeking shows strength not weakness. Sometimes threads unravel (sorry) and the original intent gets twisted around. I think you should be able to find a teacher in Madrid of all places. Are you really looking? I should think that you could find not only a classical cat but also someone who is also unconventional, creative, insightful and artistic. I know you can solve this dilemma and your intonation can be markedly improved in six months. Just get out there and find some help. Let us all know what you find!

Sure I am, its all part of the process, new better bass, more regular study time, luthier set up, new pickup set up, and of course new teacher.

I comute.

I dont mind classical, its so demanding (there is only one way to do things, and u must do it that way. lol)

maybe people are right and I just need to practice more.:rolleyes

I will try that too

[Samie]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I havent actually played it yet. Its just a sample of the range you can have just in one position under rabbath methods. Amazing potential. I am not giving up, i must get more info on this method.

Regardless, you guys are pretty right, I need to keep working hard, so thats what I set out to do.

thanks

[kpo]

Originally Posted by Samie

I have been having some problems with intonation... I already play Jazz en the EB, so its frustrating me quite a bit...
I have got pretty big hands, I already know my wide scale patterns on the EB, so its perfect for me.

Where do I start, do I get a DVD? get some books? order online? Is there a usergroup for this system? please tell me.

Your best bet is some upright-bass-specific ear training. Part of the difficulty of switching over is that EBguitar is a tiny bit less "exacting", having frets in place and everything more-or-less "Equal Temperament". The notes, in reality, are NOT "all in the same place". Even when playing with a piano or other E.T. instrument.

Doesn't *really* matter what fingering system you're using, and it definitely doesn't matter whether you're playing jazz or classical, nor does it matter how many years you've had lessons or whatever, or with whom. You just have to spend some *careful* time re-tweaking your hands to do what your ear wants them to do.

What you should consider doing is this:
Use a simple tuner that Puts Out Sound, like the $30 Korg TM40.
Turn it on to, say, an "A", then play A major/minor scales and arpeggios VERY SLOWLY. Maybe even plug the tuner into an amp and turn it up. Allow your left hand to adjust to playing in tune with the drone. Some of the hand spacing differences will feel...weird. Just do it.
Switch it up and move the tuner to a "C", and start working C major/minor... et cetera. (It's very important to play with a drone going, and not just with the tuner-dial, since you want to develop hand-to-ear coordination, not a hand-to-machine coordination.)

Very quickly your ear and your hand will get used to how it *feels* to play in tune on the upright.

=> You'll feel the whole instrument "ring" when you play well in tune; it will really help to know what that *feels* like when playing in loud, live venues.

=>That, I think is what your original question was all about, and this ear-to-hand training method is a sure-fire way to get it.

Just do it.

[Audiophage]

A lot of people forget that Electric Bass and Double Bass are entirely different instruments. Remember that in your approach to playing and practicing.

[Samie]

Remember the Intonation Blues I was talking about? They are completely gone now. What has changed? The BASS! lol.

Really, I got a new double bass, within the first week my intonation was as good as on my fretless. Absolutely confident while playing.

What has changed. Mainly tone definition. In my old bass the notes were not clear at all, so when I practice the scales I was always very insecure. In loud gigs, same deal.

I am a happy camper now!!! amazing diference.

[matthewbrown]

"The other key concept for me re: playing in tune is singing into the fingerboard. Somehow, we find the notes more naturally and accurately when we "sing" through our arms/hands."

That is so true, it deserves to be repeated over and over. Singing your solos/lines, too.

I know this question has been asked and I searched and read the various threads but I wanted to ask the question this way.

What are the first 2 or 3 lessons when learning the intervals on a DB? Which string and interval would I start with?

From read other threads people use several strategies like pianos, tone generators or play with recorded notes. That DB neck is a big piece of real estate.

Ed S.