Intonation

[Samie]

Originally Posted by edspyhill01

I know this question has been asked and I searched and read the various threads but I wanted to ask the question this way.

What are the first 2 or 3 lessons when learning the intervals on a DB? Which string and interval would I start with?

From read other threads people use several strategies like pianos, tone generators or play with recorded notes. That DB neck is a big piece of real estate.

Ed S.

Open note scales and their corresponding note intervals. Startin with seconds and then thirds, then fiths on the same string relative to the open note, and then open note octaves in adjacent strings.

Starting with G, the D, then A etc

Originally Posted by Samie

Open note scales and their corresponding note intervals. Startin with seconds and then thirds, then fiths on the same string relative to the open note, and then open note octaves in adjacent strings.

Starting with G, the D, then A etc

Thank you.

Ed S.

[aks_29]

I'm not sure if anyone else watched the video he posted.

I use the Rabbath book, but I never understood how the actual technique differed from Simandl. Until now, I've been using Simandl fingerings and technique with the Rabbath book. I have a lesson this afternoon and I can't wait to show my teacher what I learned!

Thanks Samie!

[Samie]

Originally Posted by aks_29

I'm not sure if anyone else watched the video he posted.

I use the Rabbath book, but I never understood how the actual technique differed from Simandl. Until now, I've been using Simandl fingerings and technique with the Rabbath book. I have a lesson this afternoon and I can't wait to show my teacher what I learned!

Thanks Samie!

Those videos are eye-opening, real good stuff. Thank Jason Heath and his awesome http://contrabassconversations.com/ project.

They were very helpfull for me also.

[andy rice]

For what it's worth, i have found that practicing intervals and arpeggios in the dark is good for shifting/intonation. that might be related to my fear of crosses and aversion to garlic, though....anyhow, singing along with whatever i'm practicing is also helpful, whether in unison or harmony.

[bassbuddie]

Originally Posted by Samie

I have been having some problems with intonation, specially on life performances where you really cant hear yourself well. I usually end up just playing open positions and stick with that. I already play Jazz en the EB, so its frustrating me quite a bit.]

I had the same problem in the past, the solution for me is, always ear myself. If I cant ear myself I turn my amp right in MY face and go DI in the PA. If the other members of the band can't ear me enough, it's because they play too loud. You should always be able to ear yourself, even with the rabbath technique, the difference between bad and good intonation is so small, only you ear can tell you where the note is.

[Samie]

Originally Posted by bassbuddie

I had the same problem in the past, the solution for me is, always ear myself. If I cant ear myself I turn my amp right in MY face and go DI in the PA. If the other members of the band can't ear me enough, it's because they play too loud. You should always be able to ear yourself, even with the rabbath technique, the difference between bad and good intonation is so small, only you ear can tell you where the note is.

thanks for the advice. As I mentioned earlier, it turned out to be a two fold solution.

First, I got a new DB. Second, I practiced more.

The two aspects are linked however. On the new DB (a 20+ european DB) its a cakewalk to get a nice sound, so practice is more enjoyable. It also has a focus sound, you actually hear each note clearly. It was also set up by a luthier, not by me like the other DB.

Sound, and hearing your self is part of it of course, I find it a lot easier to hear my self with this new-old db.

really dont matter what method you use, u got to put in some heavy duty quality hours. true!!

[matthewbrown]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

The "I've-got-big-hands-and-know-the-fingerboard-from-bass-guitar" thing is folly, there is one born everyday who thinks this will work out - it won't.
If you want to get your intonation together get with a good teacher who has a working knowledge of the proven methods, Simandl and Rabbath being two of them.
If not just keep doing what you are doing, don't waste time with dvds and all that.

I don't know if you're not being too dogmatic here. If a BG player has been playing fretless and has decent intonation on that, the adjustment to URB shouldn't be too bad. Bruce Gertz once told me his chief problem with students that had poor intonation was that they didn't hear that they were out of tune. I'm speaking as someone who went to see him about making the transitionto URB from BG, and I'd played fretless for a long, long time.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by fingers

I came from EB and have freakishly large hands. When I was headed to college I was sure that I was going to revolutionize how people play the bass. My teacher quietly taught me Simandl. I gradually began to realize that my intonation was more consistent, my sound was bigger, and my arms hurt less when I used Simandl. Now, as a pro, I use Simandlish fingering for DB and just view EB as a totally different animal. I'm not sure what kind of gigs you do but jazz gigs often last several hours. Anything you can do to make them easier on your body, without sacrificing sound or feel, is important.

I'll just quote myself as has become my custom. Why say it again if I was right the first time.

Damon is not being dogmatic. He is be pragmatic. I don't get why people want to reinvent the wheel. I'd rather come up with some cool stuff to play rather than designing a fingering system.

EB and DB are different instruments. Period.

I'm going to practice.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by matthewbrown

I don't know if you're not being too dogmatic here. If a BG player has been playing fretless and has decent intonation on that, the adjustment to URB shouldn't be too bad. Bruce Gertz once told me his chief problem with students that had poor intonation was that they didn't hear that they were out of tune. I'm speaking as someone who went to see him about making the transitionto URB from BG, and I'd played fretless for a long, long time.

Maybe a guy like Mike Mannring who practices with ebows actually has good intonation on fretless BG. Normally I think it just gets "close enough".
I am not working on "close enough".
The party line is practicing arco for a reason, with pizzicato or plucked or picked BG you only get the fundamental on the very first vibration and then you get overtones (some very flat) clouding the pitch very quickly. What arco can do is extend to fundamental vibration long enough to hear it well.

Also, Your ear can only hear what you have done, while playing you have a nanosecond to move less than a hair, so what we really need is for our muscle memory to get us close enough for our ear to help us.

I think another big issue is trying for perfect intonation too soon - meaning before having good facility.
If you force it too soon and have a decent ear you will get there, but your hand will just be however it takes.
The best long term way is build good left hand positions and then do as much ear training as possible.
When you have a left hand that can accurately make fine adjustments as well as a good ear, you then have a solid chance at playing the bass in tune.
Trying to get by without either is really a dead end.

I will say that borrowing basses on tour really sharpens your ear! I was away for a month in March with a different bass in each place and it was work to get what needed from each one but I managed.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by fingers

I'd rather come up with some cool stuff to play rather than designing a fingering system.

EB and DB are different instruments. Period.

I'm going to practice.

+1!!! on all counts.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by matthewbrown

I don't know if you're not being too dogmatic here. If a BG player has been playing fretless and has decent intonation on that, the adjustment to URB shouldn't be too bad. Bruce Gertz once told me his chief problem with students that had poor intonation was that they didn't hear that they were out of tune.

I'll second Bruce on that account, and add that the next phase is *admitting* that there's an intonation problem. Once you get past those two all important stages, the next stage is about how to execute the well intonated stuff you may be hearing.

Speaking as one who is sometimes cited here (rightly, wrongly, or somewhere in between) as having at least halfway decent intonation, I can honestly say that consistency is key as regards intonation. if you have great ears but not so great technique, the end result will be out of tune notes quickly adjusted to in tune notes as long as your ears are being counted on to correct your technique. Is this better than not correcting the badly intonated notes at all? Sure. But the truth is (IMO/IME, of course) that it's better still to have the physical technique honed to the point where the ears are counted on to adjust less and less to compensate for what the hands miss.

I have decent sized hands (Major 10th or 11th on the piano), and was self taught on DB after coming to it from years of fretless BG. At first, I just took the BG stuff and applied it to DB... and I was constantly adjusting pitch, especially in the lower positions. I won't even get into the injuries i caused myself during this time. After a while, I got some lessons with a trained classical bassist, and studied Simandl and Rabbath fingering techniques. What I discovered was that, for me, they provided a comfortable level of consistency of physical intonation, which made the whole endeavor a lot easier. I'm still working on that stuff every day in the shed to hone it further. YMMV.

Where the BG fingering stuff really comes in handy for me is in thumb position. All of that "box position" across the strings knowledge that flows so easily on BG can be accessed very well with a TP technique that includes the thumb as an equal to the other fingers in terms of usability; in addition, the thumb can use some of the more advanced "crab" type techniques to change positions quite well, and all of the old 4 finger stuff comes right back into play there as well. YMMV.

[damonsmith]

[quote=Chris Fitzgerald;5771527 the next phase is *admitting* that there's an intonation problem.[/QUOTE]

-Which is sometimes worded as "I play double bass", but means the same thing.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

-Which is sometimes worded as "I play double bass", but means the same thing.

Sure, but some people bury their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge and understand the necessary relation between the two.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I have decent sized hands (Major 10th or 11th on the piano), and was self taught on DB after coming to it from years of fretless BG. At first, I just took the BG stuff and applied it to DB... and I was constantly adjusting pitch, especially in the lower positions. I won't even get into the injuries i caused myself during this time. After a while, I got some lessons with a trained classical bassist, and studied Simandl and Rabbath fingering techniques. What I discovered was that, for me, they provided a comfortable level of consistency of physical intonation, which made the whole endeavor a lot easier. I'm still working on that stuff every day in the shed to hone it further. YMMV.

...and there it is. I think this exact story can be told by almost everyone, myself included, that made the switch from chop to real bass.