Intonation Problems

chadeous · #1 07-19-2006, 07:42 PM

I'm having way more trouble with my intonation than I should be. I've done all the things my teacher's told me to do (slowly work out each interval that troubles) but it doesn't seem to be getting better. I'm thinking I just plain have terrible pitch and can't distinguish the slight intonation difference, or i'm practicing wrong. Any tips/suggestions?

ToR-Tu-Ra · #2 07-19-2006, 07:57 PM

So this is more an "ear" problem, than knowing how to play the notes? I'd suggest ear training exercises: recognizing intervals, chords, scales, etc. You really need to "hear" those intervals in your head clearly so when you play them you know if they're outta tune. I'd begin with fifths and fourths, they seem the easiest to me. Also, If you could practice "accompained" by some kind of harmonic instrument, like a piano, I find that a great help.

Don't get discouraged, keep practicing

Aaron Saunders · #3 07-19-2006, 08:36 PM

Practice -- a lot. I had similar concerns when I started...it gets better. Trust me.

As far as intonation practice -- DO EVERYTHING WITH THE BOW. Do things like bowing double stops with easy to discern intervals (fifths, octaves, thirds)
in all positions a lot. This was (and is) of particular help to me.

Pcocobass · #4 07-19-2006, 08:48 PM

Aaron is totally right. The bow separates the men from the boys as far as intonation goes.

He's also right about the *time* issue. For me, it took a long time for me to get to the point where I can play in tune. The funny thing was that I had stopped worrying about it and it just got better. Not to say I stopped practicing, but I just did all the things I was supposed to, like scales and long tones with the bow, shifting exercises, transcribing, sight reading, etc. It all helps the ear and the hand to do their thing. You'd be surprised how something like sight reading or transcribing can do this, but it does.

I think most bass players will tell you they could use some work on their intonation (I know I do!), so don't get too stressed out. I can think of recordings by all of my favorite bassists where there is some shoddy intonation, either bowed or pizzed (but mostly bowed

).

Don't be discouraged! Keep it up!

Cory Palmer · #5 07-19-2006, 08:57 PM

Try practicing with a drone. I usually warm up with a scale with a drone on the dominant. The hardest intervals to hear are minor 3rds and 6ths. Practicing whatever music you are working on with a drone is very helpful.

Practicing double stops is helpful too. If you have two notes in the same position on different strings play them together to check the pitch.

Make sure that you are getting resonance from the other strings. Sometimes this isn't the best if you are working in certain keys but you can deal with that issue once you can distinguish the pitches that well. You will get resonance from any note that has a harmonic, so basically every note. Some will come out louder than others just because the octave that they will sound out but if you are in tune and stop the note that you played you should be able to hear something resonate. This also makes you sound louder.

jallenbass · #6 07-19-2006, 09:23 PM

Try recording yourself. That should help you pinpoint the problems. For some reason with me if I listen to the playback right away it sounds OK. If I listen to it the next day I seem to hear a lot more discrepencies.

jdapodaca · #7 07-20-2006, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

Make sure that you are getting resonance from the other strings. Sometimes this isn't the best if you are working in certain keys but you can deal with that issue once you can distinguish the pitches that well. You will get resonance from any note that has a harmonic, so basically every note. Some will come out louder than others just because the octave that they will sound out but if you are in tune and stop the note that you played you should be able to hear something resonate. This also makes you sound louder.

is this really desirable? are you saying that the other strings should also be vibrating, to an extent, while you are playing? i haven't been told otherwise, but i also havent been told that this is desirable. i have wondered about it, though. if when it happened, it was supposed to. is it?

**Damon Rondeau** · #8 07-20-2006, 07:23 AM

I do all this stuff -- and need to do tons more, it never stops -- but in the heat of a solo I find I still get all kinds of bumps and scrapes.

As for playing accompanied or with a drone, I find it makes playing in tune too easy. I've been meaning to record myself doing the 3-octave scale stuff I've been working on to build fingerboard knowledge and shifting dexterity but "haven't found the time" yet. What you hear live and what you hear on playback can be very different fish.

Aaron Saunders · #9 07-20-2006, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdapodaca

is this really desirable? are you saying that the other strings should also be vibrating, to an extent, while you are playing? i haven't been told otherwise, but i also havent been told that this is desirable. i have wondered about it, though. if when it happened, it was supposed to. is it?

It's called sympathetic vibrations...certain notes on the fingerboard (ones with harmonics over them) will cause other strings to resonate, and the body as a whole to resonate more. I don't experience this much at all because I'm on a ply bass, but I have two teachers and both of them have carved basses that it's very apparent on when you try for it. In the heat of playing, I've never once noticed it though. It's very subtle, and only really shows itself when you're...well, doing intonation exercises.

sixbelow · #10 07-20-2006, 08:18 AM

lots of good answers, but one important thing that wasn't mentioned

how i learnd precise tuning was to hook up a tuner with a good clip or though a pickup and would leave it ono for at least 90 minues of time. the first 60 mintues were spent on scales, arpeggios, intervals, rhythms--making sure that everything was right on.

now, its frustrating as all hell, but stick with it. do it daily with practice, and I guarentee you, you're intonation will improve over time

good luck

Cory Palmer · #11 07-20-2006, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdapodaca

is this really desirable? are you saying that the other strings should also be vibrating, to an extent, while you are playing? i haven't been told otherwise, but i also havent been told that this is desirable. i have wondered about it, though. if when it happened, it was supposed to. is it?

It's definitely desirable. Sometimes you want to make sure the resonance stops after the note if there is a rest but you should try to use those resonances to your full advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

As for playing accompanied or with a drone, I find it makes playing in tune too easy.

There is no such thing as too easy. You should want playing to be as easy as possible. When you are actually playing music with other instruments you have a tonal center based on what is being played around you. You will be able to hear that pitch fairly easy even if that tonal center is out of tune. If you are playing with a drone you are giving yourself that reference pitch.

Johnny L · #12 07-20-2006, 12:30 PM

Practicing scales and arpeggios has helped me a lot I think, but I'd still like to have better intonation!

hdiddy · #13 07-20-2006, 12:58 PM

I tried everything I think... drones, tuners, bowing.

Drones are good. Try not just the dominant, but drone over all the notes, 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, etc. Personally 4ths were the most effective for me to get intonation down. It was the hardest one to hear. I would use drones for practicing anything diatonic at first, scales, Simandl, etc. I did the Tuner thing at first for a while, but found that my tuner reads too slowly and varies with the attack on the note.

I def agree with COL.SAUNDERS, tho. Nothing can really speed up or replace time with the instrument. Practice is everything.

Pcocobass · #14 07-20-2006, 01:01 PM

I was just practicing my diminished scales and thinking of this thread...*ugh*....

All I can say is it's very important to have the sound of the particular scale or melody in your head. So if you are working on a certain piece or etude, you should be able to sing it too. If you can't hear it in your head, you certainly won't be able to play it in tune.

Also, the advice of a practice regimen is a good idea too, starting with scales/modes for a fixed amount of time with the bow and metronome.

bpclark · #15 07-20-2006, 07:37 PM

Recently, I've made it a habit to practice sitting right next to my keyboard. That way I can plink out intervals and passages as I go.

Phil Smith · #16 07-21-2006, 09:50 PM

As others have said, it takes time and you have to make sure your left hand technique is good. I find playing to a drone helps a lot and bowing slow two octave scales in all 12 keys is a hell of a workout for your ear and your body.

Dave Whitla · #17 07-22-2006, 03:53 AM

+1 on It takes time.

It may sound simplistic but playing in tune is difficult, and difficult things take time to learn.

On the one hand you have to spend the hours on the instrument so that you build up your "muscle memory" and on the other hand you have to develop your hearing so that you can discern small differences in pitch. Lots of good input on ways to do that, but one of the goals, in terms of using these exercises, should be to get to where your inner ear is slightly ahead of your hands (ie. you are hearing the note you are about to play in your head), so that your brain is predetermining where your fingers go, rather than just reacting to what you hear after you put your finger down.

Michael Case · #18 07-22-2006, 09:11 AM

Lately I've been picking one scale and spending a week with that scale. Play the scale for 2 octaves, then intervals, then arpeggios, then an etude in that key. I focus on one scale and get really in my ears and under my hands, I try different fingers, drones, and sometimes a tuner. Plus I try to play melodies or etudes on a keyboard then sing them, I find this really puts the pitches in my ear.

thumpybones · #19 07-22-2006, 10:12 AM

For drones, I like The Tuning CD, it's 1-5-1 in all keys. Don Herrmanns' Accompanied Rudiments Course and his Five Strauss Tone Poems CD's are also very helpful (even if you only play jazz, they would be VERY helpful for intonation). Also, when shifting, practice landing on the note, it may sound obvious, but too many bass players land & fish around til they find it, which makes for multiple choice "out" tonation.

damonsmith · #20 07-22-2006, 10:56 AM

When you play your exercises and etudes you should work on tuning last, my saying is: Geography (getting in the ball park of the note say within a 1/4 tone) facilty ( being able to make minute adjustments in the hand) then tunning.
Also, and this can be very difficult, make sure things look right before they sound right, if your position is good when you start working on tunning your chances are much better and you are also preparing your self for situations beyond the one at hand.
Practicing without sound and the left hand only really helps this.
Many people act like one must choose between good postions or good ears, in reality they must work together. Ultimately, the left hand should find the pitch before the right hand activates the string, this does not mean the ear can take a break! It must be ready to deal with the reality of the situation and make adjustments in the moment.
One should also balance the fact that pure intonation is not the expressive strength of our instrument with still trying for perfect intonation. Still, if 100% pure intonation was the #1 goal we would put frets on the thing.
Still, we will all play out of tune sometimes and it has to be accepted.
My feeling is that when I hear a bass player with poor technique playing out of tune I feel like they do not care and are not even trying, but good positions do not mean you will not have problems.
Also, I have not found ANYTHING close to Simandl for intonation, Esp. the early exercises.