Intonation for Young Double Bass players

tadams · #1 10-11-2006, 08:18 AM

I have just joined this forum specifically to find out about intonation issues for young 17 year old Double Bass players.
I am a music teacher and I have to assess a 17 year old girl. I would really like to encourage her by giving her a fantastic mark, because I think she has done a really fantastic job. Her performance did, however have some intonation issues. I would really like to hear from anybody, who could give me some reasons to explain these intonation difficulties as completely typical for someone of this age. The marks I give her will be moderated by an external organisation , so the reasons must be good. She has played repertoire of this assessment all the way up to thumb position.

Looking forward to your reply. Thanks
Terry
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TomGale · #2 10-11-2006, 10:21 AM

Q: Does she have the same problem in lessons as well as in performance?

"completely typical for someone of this age."
Ain't no such animal....
TG

Jake · #3 10-11-2006, 10:27 AM

Well, it takes a lot of time practicing slowly for most people to be able to play the bass at all in tune. All bass players have intonation issues no matter how in tune they play. The double bass is the hardest string instrument to play in tune. I would tell a student to buy a metronome with chromatic reference tuning pitches in 3 or 4 octaves (like a Boss DB-90) and have them practice slow scales, arpeggios, excercises, and music with a drone pitch on the root or the dominant of what they're playing. If you ask Edgar Meyer, the great bass virtuoso/composer, he will tell you about the many hours he spent (and probably still spends) practicing Bach at 60 bpm = 16th note.

Ed Fuqua · #4 10-11-2006, 10:57 AM

I responded over in the post in Janek's thread...

Cory Palmer · #5 10-11-2006, 10:58 AM

Most intonation problems come from the lack of understanding the harmonies that a person is playing with. Young players especially will have this problem. Drones are a good way to work on this. Mainly tonic and dominant drones but that can only help so much. At some point you need to get with an accompanist or get a music minus one cd.

violinoscar · #6 10-11-2006, 04:49 PM

Have to argue your point, Jake about the db being the hardest string instrument to play in tune. With its large scale there is more margin for error than on other stringed instuments. Consider the violin where in some positions even a couple of millimeters can mean the difference of a semitone. On the bass this inaccuracy would not be detectable to the human ear.

tappingtrance · #7 10-11-2006, 05:56 PM

What about playing in tune with an equal temperment instrument? I mean does she play in tune with herself e.g. if she plays a F# on the G string against an open D - can she get the oscillation in tune but against a piano it is out? - or are talking about she does not know she is out of tune - one is an adjustment issue , the other a real ear challenge.

damonsmith · #8 10-11-2006, 06:35 PM

One of my teachers gave me the advice to not let anyone but your bass teacher talk to you about intonation. I'd say if she is 17, musical and interested in working on the bass give her high mark.
Pure intonation on the double bass is hard and takes years of work.

When a leader gets on them about it I like to tell my students to tell the leader that pure intonation is expensive, and they can't afford it, starting bass player at the sf symphony makes about 100k a year, or look at the cost of flying in Jorma Katrama from Finland! not mention his fee.

Zachmozach · #9 10-13-2006, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by violinoscar

Have to argue your point, Jake about the db being the hardest string instrument to play in tune. With its large scale there is more margin for error than on other stringed instuments. Consider the violin where in some positions even a couple of millimeters can mean the difference of a semitone. On the bass this inaccuracy would not be detectable to the human ear.

Consider that after a certain point the bass has the same scale length as a cello (I don't remember if it's after the D on the G string or what). Just think about how hard it is to play in tune very high in thumb position. I'm not saying it's harder on bass, but it sure isn't easier. Playing in tune is hard on any string instrument.

Pat Harris · #10 11-18-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by violinoscar

With its large scale there is more margin for error than on other stringed instuments. Consider the violin where in some positions even a couple of millimeters can mean the difference of a semitone. On the bass this inaccuracy would not be detectable to the human ear.

Out of tune is still out of tune. No matter what instrument you're playing there is still only one place it will be in tune.

toman · #11 11-18-2006, 02:25 PM

Learning to play intervalically (sp?) helped my intonation a lot, and fortunately I was able to pick that up early on. I particularly like the "vomit" exercises to work on intervals. Drones are also great; I practice with my Dr. Beat metronome that provides a full range of drone tones for whatever key I'm working in. I've played (among many others) DB, cello, and fretless electric, and at least between those, I don't think intonation is any harder on one than another. Intonation is something you either have or don't have, IMO, it's something you have to feel. It's not something that can really be "taught" or "learned" as such.

Cory Palmer · #12 11-18-2006, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toman

Intonation is something you either have or don't have, IMO, it's something you have to feel. It's not something that can really be "taught" or "learned" as such.

I disagree with this. You can learn good intonation. I doubt there is any musician that could play perfectly in tune the first time they picked up an instrument.

toman · #13 11-18-2006, 11:06 PM

I see so many beginning players trying to "learn" intonation by remembering where their fingers are supposed to go, in various positions and such, and they're like "But my finger's in just the right spot, on the tape or dot or whatever, it has to be in tune" when they can't hear that it's wrong. You have to play by hearing and feeling the notes, not just by putting your fingers in the right places. This is what I mean when I say intonation isn't something you can just "learn". It isn't like a bow technique or a fingering or something that you learn by repetition; if it's going to be really good and not just close, it has to be something more.

andrewc4000 · #14 11-18-2006, 11:21 PM

I wish my elementary school teachers had stressed that to me a lot more. but what 4th grader who just picked up bass is going to know if a note is out of tune or not when the class piano hasn't been tuned in 10 years? And there were 60 or so people in the class, so it's kind of hard to stress individual intonation. But that's where the private lessons kick in I guess.

Cory Palmer · #15 11-19-2006, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toman

I see so many beginning players trying to "learn" intonation by remembering where their fingers are supposed to go, in various positions and such, and they're like "But my finger's in just the right spot, on the tape or dot or whatever, it has to be in tune" when they can't hear that it's wrong. You have to play by hearing and feeling the notes, not just by putting your fingers in the right places. This is what I mean when I say intonation isn't something you can just "learn". It isn't like a bow technique or a fingering or something that you learn by repetition; if it's going to be really good and not just close, it has to be something more.

So what you are talking about is people trying to learn intonation by their muscles instead of by using their ears, correct? If that is what you are talking about than I agree with you. Also, the way you really learn anything is by repetition. If you are repeating something incorrectly than you will learn it incorrectly but you are still learning.

standupright · #16 11-19-2006, 03:47 AM

I think the point is to grade her on overall accomplishment. If her intonation needs work then provide her with the tools to accomplish the task. This is very important in her development as a musician. In music grades are not as important as the tools to accomplish the grades. Without the right tools, she may continue to have the same problem long after she is your pupil.....

>>>Paul Haley

toman · #17 11-20-2006, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory Palmer

So what you are talking about is people trying to learn intonation by their muscles instead of by using their ears, correct? If that is what you are talking about than I agree with you. Also, the way you really learn anything is by repetition. If you are repeating something incorrectly than you will learn it incorrectly but you are still learning.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. That kind of practicing might work fine for guitar, piano, things like that where intonation isn't an issue, but on a "fretless" instrument, a whole different approach is required, imo.

JimmyM · #18 11-20-2006, 11:27 PM

So this thread is all about a 17 year old girl and nobody came on here to pant over it and ask for pictures. Instead, this thread turned out to be very classy. I am severely disappointed in everyone involved.

damonsmith · #19 11-20-2006, 11:36 PM

I have said it before, there is no one way to deal with intonation: You need your muscle memory, Good positions, your ear, your touch, etc. All possible facilties need to be at your disposal.
Throwing all your eggs in one basket is not going to work in all situations.
The facilties you need to play a difficult passage in a piece you have heard many times over will be different than for a piece you are seeing for the very first time.
It also varies from situation to situation, solo acoustic in a good room, to amplfied in an ensemble with bad stage sound.

Norwegianwood · #20 12-07-2006, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toman

Intonation is something you either have or don't have, IMO, it's something you have to feel. It's not something that can really be "taught" or "learned" as such.

While it´s true that some people have very little talent what so ever, everyone can surely improve their hearing abilities as well as muscle memory. Someone is indeed born with an amazing ear, but that is not the case with most of us.