Jazz Arco Tone - Should it be the same?

[AZNBassist]

I've seen a lot of threads and criticisms/praises of various players and different opinions on the sound they get with the bow.

Before I go any further, note that I'm NOT trying to be lazy and get out of playing with a bow well, I love playing with the bow (especially in a jazz context) and I always strive to have the best tone possible and I often check out classical players as a model for my own bowing technique and sound. That being said, I've heard various criticisms of bowed tones of players like PC or Jimmy Blanton and so that got me thinking.

Now I remember I was talking to a horn player and he was explaining the whole concept and difference between a classical tone and "jazz" tone, and talking about how different mouthpieces and setup make one more preferable for each respective genre (sound familiar for us bassists?). That really got me thinking, in jazz arco should we be getting the same tone the classical soloists get? Or should jazz arco have its own distinct sound? Your thoughts?

[charlespf]

I believe that, yeah, for the most part they should be the same thing. Saxes are kind of weird instruments in that they are quite modern instruments, and not a lot of classical repertoire is written with them in mind.

Now take for instance, our instrument as well as brass instruments. These are both instruments with quite long histories, and if you listen to a great rendition of the Haydn Concerto, and compare it to any great jazz trumpeter, and the techniques are basically the same. Music is music.

I also feel like it is unwise to make any generalizations between jazz and classical. Edgar Meyer gets a very different tone from Gary Karr, just as PC has a very different sound from Miroslav. By looking at purely the aesthetic of musicians, you fail to get to the heart of the matter, which is really creation, and how a particular individual does just that.
I really believe that the only difference between jazz music and classical music is improvisation. In fact, it used to be standard for classical musicians to improvise, but that died down during the romantic period. Bill Evans has described jazz and essentially a 'revival' of the old classical tradition of improvisation.

One other thing to keep in mind is that PC came up in the days of gut strings. I don't know if you've ever tried, but bowing plain gut is really, really difficult. Not only is control of tone difficult, but so are articulation and intonation. The standards for arco playing have changed for all instruments since the advent of steel strings.

Also, for great jazz arco, check out some of Ray Parker's stuff.
http://www.rayparkerbassplayer.com/S...ips/index.html

[Karl]

I think: similar tone for similar material. But playing a jazz swing solo is not very similar to a bass concerto - a bass concerto is most of the time all about the tone, plus usually some crazy technical exercises where it is especially hard (but important) to maintain a great tone. Now a jazz solo, especially up tempo swing like PC used to play with a bow is something completely different - its all about the time, the articulation, and the feel; if these things are not right, the greatest tone on earth is not going to make it sound any good, so tone would be the last thing to work on when playing in this style.

I wonder, when talking about arco bass in jazz, why people usually only think about medium or up swing solos - to me, arco sounds way better on ballads and straight tunes, for this very reason: it is more similar to classical material, so it is easiear to maintain a good sound with the instrument (which is still designed for classical music).

[damonsmith]

I played on gut once and it was fine for arco. I pretty much agree with Charles, study the classical players but let your own sound come through. Set up, bow, instrument, the weight of our arms, etc. are going to lead all of us to a slightly different place.

There are some great free jazz players with really nice, idiosyncratic arco sounds like Alan Silva, Peter Kowald, Willam Parker, Reggie Workman and many others.
As much as I love these players, in the end I use a fairly "classical" tone myself.
The key difference between us and section players is we can allow these things to come through if we feel they serve our music.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by charlespf

I believe that, yeah, for the most part they should be the same thing. Saxes are kind of weird instruments in that they are quite modern instruments, and not a lot of classical repertoire is written with them in mind.

Now take for instance, our instrument as well as brass instruments. These are both instruments with quite long histories, and if you listen to a great rendition of the Haydn Concerto, and compare it to any great jazz trumpeter, and the techniques are basically the same. Music is music.

Actually I had this very discussion with a great British Jazz trumpeter, Chris Batchelor at Jazz Summerschool a few weeks ago and he said the exact opposite!

So, we were talking about using electronics to alter tone and shape it and it was interesting as we were in Trinity College in London, surrounded by a lot of Classical students.

Chris said that if he played trumpet like he did in his various Jazz projects - that any orchestra would throw him out!

He said that the history of Jazz trumpet has been all about getting away from the classical sound and technique - using mutes/other implements and trying to get a rawer more expressive tone - more like the human voice, than the purer classical ideal.

[Pat Harris]

Originally Posted by Karl

I think: similar tone for similar material. But playing a jazz swing solo is not very similar to a bass concerto - a bass concerto is most of the time all about the tone, plus usually some crazy technical exercises where it is especially hard (but important) to maintain a great tone. Now a jazz solo, especially up tempo swing like PC used to play with a bow is something completely different - its all about the time, the articulation, and the feel; if these things are not right, the greatest tone on earth is not going to make it sound any good, so tone would be the last thing to work on when playing in this style.

I wonder, when talking about arco bass in jazz, why people usually only think about medium or up swing solos - to me, arco sounds way better on ballads and straight tunes, for this very reason: it is more similar to classical material, so it is easiear to maintain a good sound with the instrument (which is still designed for classical music).

Karl, I've to disagree about your thoughts on tone. While I do agree that time/articulation is important, I don't think that is limited to any genre. A concerto has to groove as well as a swing piece. However, if you can't produce a good tone or play in tune, that also kills the music for me. Sure, PC or Christian McBride can groove, but their arco tone slays me. I saw McBride live this past Spring and was amazed that someone at his level would play arco and have it sound the way it did-- scratchy and poor, and that was on a slower piece.

To me, a lot of jazzers that play arco have a very unbalanced sounding bow. It's like they are sawing down a tree. The bow sounds out of control, or they throw some crazy vibrato on there to try and mask intonation.

All that said, for the guys that want to play with a bow, what is the point in playing with a bow if you can't really articulate your ideas? Edgar Meyer has the same tone for bluegrass as he does for the Bottesini concerto, as he does for his version of "Doxie" with Chris Thile. It sounds great in each context.

It is my opinion that if our playing isn't clear, it doesn't really matter what we are going for, it's just going to sound as it is, and continue to make arco soloing more of a novelty than a musical statement.

-Pat

[Bruce Lindfield]

I've heard a lot of pros do scratchy arco solos and apart from putting me off the bow, it got me thinking whether it was the fact they were amped and that while amps are quite forgiving and supportive of pizz playing - the amp really highlights the "scratchiness" of the bow...?

[Pat Harris]

No doubt any sort of contact pickups through and amp will enhance the "buzz saw effect," but thier tone is similar both live and recorded. Like developing a great pizz sound, arco tone is something that really needs some shedding.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Pat Harris

No doubt any sort of contact pickups through and amp will enhance the "buzz saw effect," but thier tone is similar both live and recorded.

I'm not sure - so I was doing some recording the other day and we took a line from the pickup/amp and another from a microphone - then on playback it was hugely noticable how different the two feeds sounded!

I think this is why a lot of pro DB players go down the mic route although it can be prone to feedback - so if you bow with just a pickup, the amped sound can be lacking..?

But many Jazz pros are doing mostly pizz where a pickup is the easiest option and then when occasionally they get a chance to do arco it sounds worse..?

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I've heard a lot of pros do scratchy arco solos and apart from putting me off the bow, it got me thinking whether it was the fact they were amped and that while amps are quite forgiving and supportive of pizz playing - the amp really highlights the "scratchiness" of the bow...?

Some of it may have to do with the amplification system but you as the player are responsible for your own sound. It's true that at times there are circumstances beyond your control with respect to gear but you're still responsible for your sound.

A guy like Edgar Meyer can sound great in a wide range of contexts with the bow because he probably makes getting the sound he wants with the bow a priority in addition to being a badass.

[Pat Harris]

Phil,
You nailed my sentiments exactly.

[Bruce Lindfield]

But my point was that Jazz players are maybe playing pizz 90 - 95% of the time and then occasionally doing arco - their amp isn't going to be helping them!?

I was thinking of maybe Charlie Haden, where he gets a wonderful warm pizz sound and you are thinking - wow this is great and then he picks up the bow and it sounds like Whale Song...?

But then I still love his playing overall and his approach, taste, musicality, compositions etc.

[charlespf]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Actually I had this very discussion with a great British Jazz trumpeter, Chris Batchelor at Jazz Summerschool a few weeks ago and he said the exact opposite!

So, we were talking about using electronics to alter tone and shape it and it was interesting as we were in Trinity College in London, surrounded by a lot of Classical students.

Chris said that if he played trumpet like he did in his various Jazz projects - that any orchestra would throw him out!

He said that the history of Jazz trumpet has been all about getting away from the classical sound and technique - using mutes/other implements and trying to get a rawer more expressive tone - more like the human voice, than the purer classical ideal.

Bruce, thanks for this point. Despite my initial point of the musician being more important than the musical aesthetic, I still fell into that trap of making generalizations when talking about trumpeters. Your point just goes to show that every musician hears something different. I would still however like to stress the difference between section playing and solo playing. Like Damon said earlier, we, as improvisers, are able to let things come through if we feel they serve the music, and I believe soloists have that same freedom. Section players do not have this freedom by any means. Section playing is all about blending and being part of a bigger whole.

So while Edgar Meyer may have what we call a great 'classical' tone, if he tried to play like that in the Boston Symphony, it would just sound out of place.
That said, I really like the example of Edgar that someone brought up, who pretty much plays with the same tone and spirit in all of his various projects. Beautiful and distinctive.

EDIT

Oh, and speaking of sounding like the human voice, Gary Karr has said that he thinks of his bass as being his singing voice, and that if he were a singer, he would want to sound like his bass, so I feel like that vocal, super expressive tone quality is not only a jazz thing, but also very much alive in classical music. I don't think that there's very much in jazz that hasn't been done before in classical music, aesthetically or harmonically. The Impressionist composers were big on upper chord structures, Bach was big on 2-5's and complex harmonic modulation, Mozart was big on improvisation, and Handel was big into 'swing'.

[damonsmith]

The amp only has so much to do with it - if you have a scratchy tone it will amplify it - but that is it's job.
I played a gig last night amplified and I was able to get a nice clean sound when I wanted it. There are recordings in the 70s and 80s of great players like Barre Phillips, Kent Carter and Rick Rozie getting a nice smooth tone while amplified.
In jazz and improvised music (as well as modern classical) the palette is much wider, so often times musicians are working with harsh or wispy sounds and other colors on purpose.
For example, and I am not Haden defender, he seems to actually be going for that whale song effect on purpose.

One key thing here is to practice a lot with the bow, and study every possible sound it can make - if you know how a particularly harsh sound is produced not only might it be useful at some point but you can also understand precisely how to purge it when you want a clean sound.

[charlespf]

Damon, I really like and agree with your point about practicing with the bow.
It's often stated that we need to practice with the bow for intonation, but it's rarely emphasized how much using the bow opens up the color palette in our playing.
Since I started studying classical music more seriously, doing lots of work on arco tone and articulation has really opened up the colors I have to work with now when improvising. This even extends to pizz playing, which I now think of as almost an extension of arco playing.

[chop_1992]

Interesting thread . . . If we are going to say that arco jazz should sound just like arco classical, then should we agree that pizzicato jazz should sound like classical pizz? I don't think so. In both cases they are stylistically different sounds. I do think that arco jazz should live up to the same basic musical standards of the classical tradition: good tone, good articulation, with a controlled musical delivery. But the stylistic considerations are much different when a jazz soloist picks up the bow.

Problems can occur when something in the bass-to-amplification chain is screwed up. If you do not get a good acoustic sound with the bow, or if the pickup sound with the bow through the amp stinks, then the whole sound stinks--and it's hard to get past that. But sometimes even if there is *only* a microphone that is set up for a good, clear pizz sound, then that can also sound terrible with the bow: too hot, too thin, too scratchy, too whatever. This can happen in the recording studio too (which explains a lot of the less-than-optimal jazz arco sounds on record) --you are playing what seems like a burning take, and when it comes time for your solo, you pick up the bow and start blowing--only to realize that the sound in the headphones is twice as loud as the pizz sound was, very scratchy, the mic is too close to the bass, etc.

I like to play a lot with the bow, so here are a couple of observations and tips that I can throw out. Maybe someone will find these useful (I am digging your thoughts about the subject as well).

1. If you use an amp live, then practice playing with the bow through the amp in the practice room. Don't wait for a live concert to discover that the two sounds (amped and acoustic) are very different.

2. If you use an amp, you can take a measure at the beginning of your solo to either turn the amp way down (I use a minus -12 db switch sometimes), or to turn the treble knob down. The audience will wait for you. In the past, I have also used a volume pedal to even out the volume or an A/B switcher that sends the signal to a separate "arco" channel.

3. If you have the luxury of working with a sound person, tell them: "In the third tune of the set when I play my killin' arco solo on Moment's Notice, and any other time I pick up the bow, just ride the pickup signal down and the mic signal up." Soundmen like challenges like that.

4. If you record in a studio, then be sure to tell the engineer if you are going to play arco. They will want to check that particular sound before the take. They might even set up an extra mic (maybe about a foot or more away from the bass) to get a warmer sound. For jazz pizz, the mic is often right in front of the bass (just a couple of inches away). When you play arco, the sound will be warmer with the mic a little further away. If you can be at the mixing session, then you have a fighting chance to get a decent arco sound on record--tell 'em how it's supposed to sound. If you are not there, then you lovely bowed sound might sound like a bad baritone sax.

5. If you are using a mic to record or play live, then pick the bass up and move a step back from the mic before you start to play your arco solo. Then move back towards the mic when you go back into pizz/time.

6. Remember the trite saying: GIGO (Garbage-In-Garbage-Out). If you get a lousy acoustic sound with the bow, then miking it, amplfying it, or recording it is going to sound . . . lousy. The same musical principles apply to jazz and classical styles alike. We should strive for: a pleasing tone, solid fundamental, good pitch, and accurate style-appropriate rhythm. A pleasing sound in jazz is not always the same as a pleasing traditional classical sound (imho), but a jazz arco sound should be aesthetically beautiful, in-tune, and in-time.

We can play jazz with a big beautiful, swinging bowed sound--it just takes an extra bit of thought, practice and experimentation. I think more and more players are bridging the gap and doing it (arco jazz that is) really well.

To hear me playing with the bow on a couple of tunes, you can check out the tunes "Three Short Stories," or "Tale of the Fingers," or "The Cupbearers" from a couple of my CDs. Hope you enjoy -- thanks to all for the enlightening thread.

[damonsmith]

Great post from the man who literally wrote the book on the subject. Tracking down a copy of:
John Goldsby: Jazz Bowing Techniques for the Improvising Bassist
Is a must for anyone interested in this subject. I got it fairly soon after I started and it helped a lot.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I agree that was a very good post - but I coudn't help thinking how many things you have to be considering - and that's apart from l&r hand technique, note selection, structuring a solo, being melodic etc etc.

It's a surprise that there are any decent arco solos in Jazz - given the sheer number of things you have to think about!!

But I suppose it's like the Olympics - you think nobody can run any faster than the latest guy, but each generation manages to raise the bar!!

[chop_1992]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

But I suppose it's like the Olympics - you think nobody can run any faster than the latest guy, but each generation manages to raise the bar!!

Very true, Bruce! The level is getting higher and higher in a lot of different genres.

I actually don't try to "think" much on the bandstand -- I like to think a lot when I practice and then just try and listen on the bandstand.

If we are dealing with all of the technical aspects of amplifying and recording, then we just have to deal with them -- it's the curse of the modern bassist.

But the hardest part (or the part that demands the most attention) is still just playing the thing acoustically, with or without the bow.

Thanks for the kind words, Damon. I wrote "Bowing Techniques for the Improvising Bassist" much to my own benefit -- I wanted to codify practice and performance techniques for myself. I'm glad others get something out of it as well.

[PocketGroove82]

As a novice jazz double bassist who's learning more and more about all things double basses (thanks to talkbass), one thing I've noticed about many of the more recent, notible arco players is that their arco sound is very "Juzeky".
Maybe it's all in my head, so correct me if I'm wrong and expand upon this idea if you can, but I hear similarities in the arco tones of guys coming out of the ray brown school and I don't really know how to describe it.