John Clayton Bass tips

[Rugdoctor]

I ran a search and this didn't come up anywhere on the forum (sorry if this is a repost).

Just thought everyone should hear this from a master of our instrument.

http://www.johnclaytonjazz.com/cm/lessons/BassTips.pdf

[jstiel]

I can't see this one at all:

"-don't use a fake book
-don't buy a fake book"

Does he mean learn them and play them all by ear without seeing changes or what? I don't get it. Can someone explain this to me? What am I missing?

If every bass player did this, I think I'd get a lot more gigs.

[Nathan Parker]

I study with a guy who studied with John Clayton, and that is definitely his deal. He wants people to learn tunes from albums, changes and the melodies, and not use music. I reckon he feels that way since he studied with Ray Brown who grew up without fakebooks.

[adbass]

I remember an interview with Ray Brown where he stated he learned how to play jazz by playing along with the Blanton/Webster band on the radio. I'm sure many instrumentalists of that era learned from the radio.

It's just a different philosophy/approach to learning music. It's worth checking out, perhaps not for every tune.

[Paul Warburton]

Did you guys get together and plan this silly **** to bait me? If you did....nice try. It ain't gonna work.
I'm just kidding. I know you don't know who I am....or give a rat's....I like that.
I like this thread, so I'm just gonna sit back and watch........
It's that old "pull over on the shoulder and watch the car accident on the highway" syndrome in me.
Compelling but pretty damn sad.........

[jgbass]

Originally Posted by jstiel

I can't see this one at all:

"-don't use a fake book
-don't buy a fake book"

Does he mean learn them and play them all by ear without seeing changes or what? I don't get it. Can someone explain this to me? What am I missing?

If every bass player did this, I think I'd get a lot more gigs.

This is about it learning to recognize the common changes common in many jazz tunes and learning to anticipate where a tune is going. A high percentage of jazz standards are based on common patterns. These include ii-V-I, jazz blues changes, and rhythm changes. If you can master these changes in, preferably, all keys and play them by memory, you will be well on your way to putting aside your real book. No, it is not about memorizing tunes, one by one. It is more about learning to anticipate changes. With practice, it is possible to anticipate changes. With practice, you can get most of a tune by listening to what is going on with other players.

The older generation of jazz players had to develop this ability. Often, no one would even call the key. You had to be able to just get up there and play.

Now it seems jazz is taught differently and, sadly, I sometimes see really academically educated players who cannot seem to play anything without staring at the real book. To me, that's not real learning. They are missing out on something every important and they are not interacting fully with other players. In some circles, it is simply the expectation that one can just play, has the experience to anticipate, and also has the playing experience to "know" many many tunes. The point it not to get in a discussion about what is in the real book. The real book is only a guide. The important thing is to listen to real recordings by real players and really internalize what they are doing.

There are some helpful books out on this topic too. Right now, I am working on really being able to internalize ii V I in all keys and in a cycle, as well as really getting down rhythm changes patterns. I have been avoiding several keys. There are some good Abersold and other instructional things on this, as well as the common blues changes, plus thousands of recordings to dig into.

By starting to really get this interalized, you can listen to tunes you never heard before, and have a lightlub moment. Oh that's a rhythm changes pattern, or this is a ii V I cycle, or these are jazz blues changes, and know you can pick up the bass and play along to tunes have never played before.

[adbass]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Did you guys get together and plan this silly **** to bait me? If you did....nice try. It ain't gonna work.
I'm just kidding. I know you don't know who I am....or give a rat's....I like that.
I like this thread, so I'm just gonna sit back and watch........
It's that old "pull over on the shoulder and watch the car accident on the highway" syndrome in me.
Compelling but pretty damn sad.........

Do you mean the list of 'bass tips' is ********, or learning by ear is ********, or using fake books is *******? What do you mean you ol' goosenecker you?

[fingers]

Look. All his points are very dogmatic but not without reason. It is important for a teacher to really believe in what they are teaching. He's been around this biz for a long time and has formed his opinions based on that. As we all know there is more than one way to come to knowledge. You don't want a teacher to tell you that though. You want them to impart the knowledge they have in what they feel is the best way.

[klem.gote]

We all learn differently, and that's cool. Personally, as a teen ager working with older guys and not knowing any of the tunes they called, I quickly learned to listen, recognize patterns etc. It was great training, and to this day I'd rather just listen, have the pianist run through the changes quickly and not deal with books. But something I DON'T understand; I've known some very good musicians who still use music for tunes they've been playing for 30 years!! At some point you need to take the leap of faith, close the book and play!!!

[kscbass]

Originally Posted by jstiel

I can't see this one at all:

"-don't use a fake book
-don't buy a fake book"

Does he mean learn them and play them all by ear without seeing changes or what? I don't get it. Can someone explain this to me? What am I missing?

If every bass player did this, I think I'd get a lot more gigs.

I think that what he is saying is: learn and figure out the chord quality by ear, this will (eventually) help you recognize the sound of a chord much quicker. Learn the melody by ear: I've realized that the melodies I remember the most are the ones I've heard from recordings over and over again, instead of memorizing melodies from a book. This also applies to transcribing solos instead of buying a books of solo transcriptions, there's a lot more you'll learn in the process of transcribing than reading it from a book.
Kai

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by klem.gote

But something I DON'T understand; I've known some very good musicians who still use music for tunes they've been playing for 30 years!! At some point you need to take the leap of faith, close the book and play!!!

I know, I don't get that one either. Security blanket, I guess.

For me, it's hard to feel I'm actually playing a tune until I internalize it. If it's a new tune on a chart, I try to get past the reading stage as quickly as possible.

[Michael Glynn]

Regarding fake books, I think John has two reasons behind it.

First: as has been mentioned, it is much better to learn by ear than from written music. We are in the business of making music and should be using our ears more than our eyes. If you are concentrating on a piece of paper in front of you, you are necessarily removing some amount of concentration from listening to the other musicians in the band. Also, if you start learning songs by ear, it becomes much easier to learn more tunes by ear (and play them in different keys, and follow along when someone alters the changes, and develop a deeper understanding of harmony, etc., etc.)

Second: many old fake books (and quite a few new ones) suck. Sometimes the changes and/or melody can be just plain wrong. Even if they are not clearly wrong, people often play slightly different changes to the same tune, and fake books can give people the impression that there is a "right" set of changes for every tune. I have played a million gigs where some cat has played the changes to a tune a certain way (without adjusting to what everyone else is doing) and even if he wasn't reading from a fake book at the time, I instantly knew which fake book he had learned his changes from. I've even played gigs where two musicians had clearly learned the changes from two different books and they didn't even notice that they were playing completely different changes from each other through an entire song. That makes it tough on me, too. Who do I choose to play with in that case? If they used their ears, we'd have been fine, but as it was each player knew they were playing the right changes and was unable to adjust.

Now, I'm not as strict on this as John Clayton is. For one thing, there are some better fake books out there than when John was starting. I also think fake books can be useful to get an idea of a song, just don't assume that it is correct in every way. That would be like believing everything you read on talkbass.

Also, especially if you are a beginner, if you get called for a gig and you don't know any tunes at all, you need something to get through and a fake book is probably the best way to go. But try to wean yourself off of it. Getting together to play with other musicians in a non-gig setting is the best way to try this out, but simply playing along with all of your records at home is also extremely useful. It may seem impossible at first, but before too long you will find yourself playing through songs on gigs you have never played before. If it seems hard to practice, just remember that it's a lot easier to do it at home than on the gig. When I was starting out playing professionally I had some gigs with guys that would just start playing tunes without even asking if I knew it or had a chart. That was a big incentive to start using my ears.

As a final note, I am referring to standards and standard-like songs more than originals or complex arrangements. Even in these cases, though, getting away from the music sooner rather than later is good. I have a friend who plays drums in a big band led by Bobby Shew. Bobby gave him the drum book and said, "okay, learn these charts, I don't want to see them on your stand."

[jstiel]

Originally Posted by jgbass

This is about it learning to recognize the common changes common in many jazz tunes and learning to anticipate where a tune is going. .

Is he saying that it's not good to look at the changes as well as hear them?

Are you supposed to memorize every tune in the world before you start gigging?

Why does the fact that Ray didn't have any fakebooks when he was coming up mean it's better not to have them?

(How's that Paul?)

[jstiel]

Originally Posted by kscbass

I think that what he is saying is: learn and figure out the chord quality by ear, this will (eventually) help you recognize the sound of a chord much quicker. Learn the melody by ear: I've realized that the melodies I remember the most are the ones I've heard from recordings over and over again, instead of memorizing melodies from a book. This also applies to transcribing solos instead of buying a books of solo transcriptions, there's a lot more you'll learn in the process of transcribing than reading it from a book.
Kai

That's not what he's saying. He's saying:

"-don't use a fake book
-don't buy a fake book"

[Nathan Parker]

Originally Posted by jstiel

Is he saying that it's not good to look at the changes as well as hear them?

Are you supposed to memorize every tune in the world before you start gigging?

Why does the fact that Ray didn't have any fakebooks when he was coming up mean it's better not to have them?

(How's that Paul?)

I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying. You should take it to heart. Or not. If you have a problem, he is pretty easy to get a hold of. You should take your issues right to him. Here's his website, which has all his contact info on it:

http://www.johnclaytonjazz.com/

[jstiel]

Originally Posted by klem.gote

We all learn differently, and that's cool. Personally, as a teen ager working with older guys and not knowing any of the tunes they called, I quickly learned to listen, recognize patterns etc.

That's exactly how I learned the repertoire and learning how to find your way around a tune by ear is a valuable thing. But later, when I actually saw the changes, it added a lot to my knowledge of the tunes and music in general.

I don't have a problem with John on this as someone suggested. I just disagree - it's that simple, and no disrespect meant to John. It's obvious most other players disagree too - I'm sure most of the players on this board not only own fakebooks but probably even look at them once in a while.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by klem.gote

Personally, as a teen ager working with older guys and not knowing any of the tunes they called, I quickly learned to listen, recognize patterns etc. It was great training

That's how I came up.
In fact, fake books were literally illegal. They existed, but were rare.
The most decisive training I had was ear training with classical composer and PhD Ron Nelson. It has served me for the last 52 years.

[Eli_Upright12]

Does any one else not agree with him about not accenting two and four? or about tapping on one and three? Two amazing wise bassists and leaders of the new wave of jazz bass education in the Midwest, both told me in one weeks time "No great bassist has ever lived that didn't hit two and four a little harder, whether intentionally or just as part of the feel." I believe this to be true. One of our big jobs as bassists is to set the pulse for the rest of the band. In classical music one and three carry emphasis and time. In jazz two and four serve the same function.

[emilio g]

For my first two years of music school, I had serious fake book disease. I found my self using it on tunes I'd played many many times.

But last august I took a gig with a cover band and that got me over it. I had to learn about 60 tunes pretty quickly, so I just started making charts for everything off of youtube.

First few rehearsals I read out of my book, but the tunes started to stick really quickly, and after a month I didn't need the book at all.

So between transcribing as much as I can off a recording (learning some piano helped to hear the changes more easily) and checking it against a fake book, I'm getting a lot better at hearing the changes to a tune.

[LM Bass]

Nothing but great respect for John Clayton from me.

I think the thing about accenting 2 and 4 is that a lot of beginner bassists, or those new to Jazz, think they have to "Swing", and they do too much to try and make that happen. Over-accenting 2 and 4 is just one of the problems that can arise from this idea. Tapping on 1 and 3 just helps you settle your time better, from what I've experienced. It seems counter-intuitive, but it works for most players.

(The next big mistake is usually to play too many drops and skipped notes, but play them in a way that breaks up the flow of your quarters. . .)

Re: real books, well I think it's always better to know a lot of tunes really well, than have to read them, if you are a jazz bass player. I always tell my students to learn the real book changes, too, because that is what many players do around here. So you need to be aware of the "wrong book". Really the best idea is to have listened to good recordings with standard changes, like Sinatra records, where you can also learn the lyrics.