Latin/Afro-Cuban Styles As A Jazz Bassist

[jgbass]

I was curious how many of you find it necessary or want to play Latin and Afro-Cuban styles as part of being a working jazz bassist? I am not just considering bossa and sambas, which seem to be part of Real Book standards, but more tumbao, salsa, Afro-Cuban, rhumba grooves.

I have been studying a lot of these styles recently with a teacher, and it has been a good experience and has expanded me musically. A lot of this was motivated by some experiences at a university music program where I was called on to play salsa and tumbao style in combo situations with little or no instruction and a drummer who did not really get it either, and I just did not pull it off that well, at least to my standards.

I guess expectations are different int diferent parts of the country and the world, for that matter, but as a regular working jazz bassist (if there is such a thing) is this part of the expectations you run into as a working bassist?

[StyleOverShow]

The classic stuff was laid down years ago by Dizzie, etc. Currently, in LA, Luminessence (sp) is tearing it up with latin jazz meets progressive rock (not fusion and only on the fringes of latin jazz at best). Catch them if you can. Heard them on the local jazz station 88.1 and caught a show just after the 4th. They are amazing!

-richard

[Gornick]

There have been a couple threads concerning Afro-Cuban around. There is some very good advice here, some of it concerning the professional side of things:

Latin and counting

and another:

Tumbao over Swing

I haven't come across any expectations in my jazz travels of being required to play a hardcore tumbao thing, (the kind where you are dropping the one and anticipating the harmony on the 4). Playing the basic tumbao (1, and of 2, 4 repeat) is part of standard (and not so standard) interpretations of many bop tunes, I have found, though some folks don't know the difference between that and bossa, unfortunately. I think the deeper you get in the jazz world and come across more serious players out there who have put the same effort in themselves, you are going to find that the Tumbao studies will really pay off. I personally haven't got that far quite yet, but I know that tumbao has given a new dimension to straight-ahead. For that matter, I have been trying to throw tumbaos under my bluegrass-punk band lately, slip it up on em without them even knowin'.

Check Carlos Henriquez's (known as BAJO) input in these threads. he got tumbao from the get-go to go along with his swing chops.

[chop_1992]

If your are in a jazz situation, they will not expect the rhythm section to switch on a dime to an Afro-Cuban groove. But you should be comfortable playing tumbao. Check out Carlos Henriquez (BAJO) here on the forum and I can also recommend The Latin Jazz Bass Book by Oscar Stagnaro.

You mentioned that your drummer also did not quite have his afro-cuban beat together. If he does not play something authentic, then it will just sound "generic." Also the piano player has to be playing his pattern on the correct side of the clave, and the percussionists have a specific function in the rhythm section. It is not completely foreign from American jazz, but it is very stylized. I find that most players who do not play much Cuban music do not even think about the clave: 3-2 or 2-3. It is important to be aware of the clave, even if it does not change the bass pattern.

Here is a video where I am playing electric with Lalo Schifrin. Note the piano montuno that runs through the whole tune and the very specific grooves of each of the percussion instruments. I am playing an unvaried tumbao through most of the chart until the piano solo goes to swing :-)

Lalo Schifrin / Jon Faddis / David Sanchez / Ignacio Berroa / Alex Acuna / Marcio Doctor / WDR Big Band

So, everyone has a function and as a bassist, we are sometimes asked to emulate a cuban-style or brazilian-style bass line. If you have listened to the music a bit and checked out the basic playing techniques, you will have some chops and vocabulary in those styles. It is a valuable skill that you might rarely by called upon to use, but you will be glad if you know the basics.

[jgbass]

Richard - Thanks for the info about Luminescensce - I will listen for on kjazz and try to catch them live.

Gornick - Thanks for the links. Good info. Think its time to go out and do some dancing!

Chop_1992 - Nice performance!! Great demonstration of tumbao and the interaction with the other instruments, rhythm section. My teacher has given me some rhythm studies to work on and I think I am going to pull out that Latin Jazz Bass Book. And, yes, that's the point of studying this. I may not use it a lot, but if I get in a playing situation where something Afro-Cuban or Brazilian or whatever is next, I really want to have a basic vocabulary and chops in these styles.

[chicagodoubler]

"Working jazz bassist" is such a funny combination of words these days...

It's been years since I worked regularly with a salsa band, but here's some reasons why you REALLY should have these styles together:

In so many contexts aka hotel work, weddings, boat gigs, private parties, etc, we are called on to play for dancers. The ones who are "trained" really know the styles well. They *will* ask for everything from a Viennese waltz to a Rhumba to a Tango. Play a Cha Cha too fast or drop the clave playing Salsa and you or your group may not get the call back for the next gig.

Also, I'm always surprised how many jazz pianists know and love montunos, and 75% of the pro jazz drummers in the big cities can at least fake the Cuban set... it's always a pleasure when everybody knows how to play the game! There's rarely a week that goes by when one of the trios I work with doesn't slip into clave for a tune or two.

In addition, "Latin jazz gigs." "Salsa gigs." "Brazilian gigs." Enough said. Sometimes the ebb and flow of straightahead gigs can be soothed by a few steady "latin" dance nights.

On many many traditional jazz gigs you'll never have to be able to play "latin" styles authentically. Unfortunately, purely instrumental jazz gigs are more and more rare everyday. I can't think of a single good reason not to learn real life job skills that might make you more bread...

my 2 cents.



Oh yeah. The books are helpful but no replacement for transcription and playing with the real cats... just like jazz. The tumbao with the dropped beat 1 is far less common in real working salsa bands than some folks would have you believe. Check the bassline on this incredibly omnipresent Salsa standard from the master himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC7AQ9HqmMI

[jgbass]

Thanks Chicagodoubler! This is really helpful information. And since I am thinking of a future boat gig, I get how this is absoutely important to know.

And, thanks for the link. I think I am going to learn my first salsa tune today.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I have done it in bands - but it can get boring - never-ending root-fifth patterns on D Minor!!

196 bars to the change!!

It can also be hazardous in Jazz situations - so a local Jazz DB player I know who leads his own band, wrote some tunes with a Montuno/Tumbao. Then he just happened to be playing a gig that I saw, with a piano-less group - 3 horns, bass and drums . He counted off his tune and started playing the Tumbao, but the rest of the band came in on what they thought was the one and ended up a beat out, throughout the head and solos etc.

Nobody in the audience noticed though!!

[BrandonTurner]

[quote=Bruce Lindfield;7675819]I have done it in bands - but it can get boring - never-ending root-fifth patterns on D Minor!!

196 bars to the change!!

HA!!!
Tumbao is maybe one of the best things I learned how to do. Sure it easy to play root - fifth on the and of 2 and 4 but to make it groove is something else all together. A few years back I spent some time transcribing some parts and listening. I am not Mr. Salsa but it makes a huge difference when you start playing the groove little more authentically. (more people want to dance)

As a bass player groove is all we have in Jazz. Check out some Ray Barretto records or look for Oscar De Leon on Youtube.

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

In so many contexts aka hotel work, weddings, boat gigs, private parties, etc, we are called on to play for dancers. The ones who are "trained" really know the styles well. They *will* ask for everything from a Viennese waltz to a Rhumba to a Tango. Play a Cha Cha too fast or drop the clave playing Salsa and you or your group may not get the call back for the next gig.

So true. In Universities here, "Latin" means bossa nova or some generic 'latin-jazz'. How to play passable and proper music where people can dance cha cha, Rhumba, Tango, Mambo, Samba etc is not even addressed. Then on the paying wedding/hotel/boat gig, a client asks 'I want to dance a cha cha and then a rhumba afterwards." And if were not prepared we end up with some sort of generic bland thing.

I'm trying to learn as much of this as I can. It's not so easy. Having a latin musician friend/guide really helps. Latin is evolving, and varies from region to region. And there are many hybrid styles out there too which use the drum kit as foundation instead of 3 separate percussionist.

[BrandonTurner]

Originally Posted by longfinger

So true. In Universities here, "Latin" means bossa nova or some generic 'latin-jazz'. How to play passable and proper music where people can dance cha cha, Rhumba, Tango, Mambo, Samba etc is not even addressed. .

I call this "Chick Corea" Latin. Not that his is bad or wrong but he fused many styles into his own concept which people adapt and use for everything.

Sometimes it works but sometimes it sounds incredibly out of context.

BTW Chick Corea Rules!

[massimo]

Agree with you Brandon about the "Corea latin style".
This has nothing to do with the "real" traditional styles .
Also the most simple bossa groove played by a jazz r. section (also of higher level) is normally really far from the "real sound". I play sometimes with a top level brazilian guitarist and the difference in the groove, intention and feeling is huge.
Also many bass books don't help because they reference is
the "american latin style" that is a mixture of brazilian, cuban, afro ... something that began to develope in the fifties and still develops. There is nothing wrong with this ; the problem is when someone is asking your band a mambo and the bass plays a chacha , the piano a montuno and drums a rumba. So for real world gigs is vital to know the basic styles for the serious bassist (and other instruments too).

[jgbass]

Originally Posted by longfinger

So true. In Universities here, "Latin" means bossa nova or some generic 'latin-jazz'. How to play passable and proper music where people can dance cha cha, Rhumba, Tango, Mambo, Samba etc is not even addressed. Then on the paying wedding/hotel/boat gig, a client asks 'I want to dance a cha cha and then a rhumba afterwards." And if were not prepared we end up with some sort of generic bland thing.

I'm trying to learn as much of this as I can. It's not so easy. Having a latin musician friend/guide really helps. Latin is evolving, and varies from region to region. And there are many hybrid styles out there too which use the drum kit as foundation instead of 3 separate percussionist.

I am totally with you on this. In fact, I had this conversation today with some band members, a few who are university jazz majors. I said, well, you do not learn this in the school program. And, it is true! It seems those who knew Latin coming into the program leave knowing it, but those who do not, learn next to nothing. I put in a few years with a big band that played a lot of dance gigs,and played with a Santana type of band with Latin percussion, so I have some basic knowledge of some of these styles and tunes to associate them with.

So, I am thrilled that I am studying with a teacher who is concerned about making sure I learn the authentic stuff, not all the watered down stuff. My teacher is also studying with someone who plays the authentic music. Nothing wrong with the watered down Chick Corea stuff, but I consider it important to learn the real thing and learn the background and traditions of this music. It does have a history.

One book I have and recommend is called The Swing of the Latin Bass by Ray Ramirez.

It says on the cover: Learn the different styles of Afro Cuban and Afro Caribbean Music. Learn to play Guaguanco, Cha cha cha, Guajira, Son Montuno, Descarga and Rumba. It also has verbal explanations of all these styles, background info, etc. and it is in Espanol as well as English. Comes with a CD as well.

Imformation on analyzing styles, and bass technique, understanding the clave, and the roots of Latin bass.

[ee-san]

Lots of great resources here. I studied with this one: The Salsa Guidebook for Piano & Ensemble by Rebeca Mauleon. But, I don't have the cohones to work with the true Afro-Carribbean players around these parts. My Spanish ain't up to speed.

[Jazzdogg]

My band has been playing a few tunes by Scott Martin's Latin Soul band (Martin played with Poncho Sanchez for more than a dozen years). The bassist who records with him (Rene' Camacho) grooves like few I've heard on DB and electric - great stuff!

I decided to learn this stuff because it's fun, and adds some spice to our set lists. I recently bought an instructional DVD by Poncho Sanchez entitled "Fundamentals of Latin Music for the Rhythm Section," which presents the specific roles of the bassist, each percussionist, and the pianist in a straightforward manner; I learn something new each time I listen to it. Mambo, Chachacha', Merengue', and Afro-Cuban styles are covered. Rene' Camacho provides the DB instruction.

[BrandonTurner]

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

My band has been playing a few tunes by Scott Martin's Latin Soul band (Martin played with Poncho Sanchez for more than a dozen years). The bassist who records with him (Rene' Camacho) grooves like few I've heard on DB and electric - great stuff!

Rene Camacho kicks some serious butt~!

[Mike Arnopol]

I'm a big fan of Afro-Cuban music and did a lot of listening and studying. I even got to the point of considering getting a Baby Bass to get the best feel. I was subbing in some of the best Salsa bands in Chicago. Then I played opposite John Benitez with Danilo Perez and Antonio Sanchez. John was playing so open and freely over various claves and never crossing clave. He was playing Afro-Cuban style the same way I would open up a feel in jazz swing feel. The reason he could do this was that he had ALL of the percussion parts internalized. I realized that to play Afro-Cuban at that level of freedom would require a full-time devotion and lifelong study of that music. There is a bass player in Chicago that doesn't have a lot of bass chops, but if the timbale player messes up one note, he'll call him on it. And he's right. I still love Afro-Cuban stuff and play it well for a jazzer, I guess. But I know that I'll never have the depth of knowledge and feel that a cat like John Benitez has. It started out as, and remains almost a religious thing.

[Jazzdogg]

Here's a sample of Rene' Camacho's tutorial on the Poncho Sanchez video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJw_EvcgTW8

[chicagodoubler]

As usual, Mike is speaking the gospel truth.

This is what I recommended in the post linked above:

If you want to learn how to play salsa, at least learn the basic patterns on conga and timbale. Learning how to dance won't hurt your playing or your love life either...

If you want to have *any* idea how to play authentic Brazilian music, go buy a pandeiro and learn as much as you can about the surdo. The pandeiro IS the swing in this music, and the surdo IS the alpha and omega of Brazilian bass playing.


These musics are some of the most drum- oriented styles on the planet. Learning the basic patterns is a hefty time commitment but the investment will aid your rhythmic concept to the end of your days.



Salsa transcription- check out Hector Lavoe, Celia Cruz, Oscar De Leon, Fania All Stars, Ruben Blades, and Willie Colon. These guys laid the foundation, and the "standards" of the rep are found predominantly on their albums, FME.


PS if anyone wants a baby bass.... I'm your guy.

[jgbass]

Great information here!

Can someone clarify how the term "salsa" is used or exactly what it means? Is it a specific or generic term, or can it be used either way? It seems to mean several things and different things to different people. When I think of salsa I think of players like Cecilia Cruz, Willie Colon, Oscar de Leon, the ones mentioned in the previous post. I think of a specific pattern.

A pianist explained the salsa beat to me, but I think he was oversimplifying things. What I am reading here is that salsa consists of many different patterns. Any clarificatin appreciated.