Latin and counting

[Gornick]

I picked up the Latin Bass Book (Stagnaro) and have been working out of it a bit... nice book, great info, lots of reading, not really well laid out in a progressive manner, but no matter.

I was wanting some tips on how to approach the count and feel. It's quite easy to turn the beat around with that heavy 4 anticipation. Also, In most real world applications, are you reading note for note, or just from chord changes?

Also, if any of you have worked out the book with the CD's, do you find a couple tunes speeding up just slightly or is that just me....no complaints, as the energy of the performances is quite nice.


and finally, does this mean we get a Latin Techinique section to go along with all the rest.

thanks

[reedo35]

If you have to count, you're already late. I struggled with those rhythms for a long time myself, and you just have to get the feel
for how the bass line fits in with the other rhythm instruments.
Also, in a real world latin band, you are usually looking at some incomprehensible hand scribbled lead sheet, and some guy next to you is screaming directions (or insults?) in some hispanic dialect. So you have to rely on your feel for the tune. Like Cachao
said "There are no wrong notes, only wrong rhythms."

[Christopher]

If you haven't grown up listening to those rhythms, they're pretty difficult to get down. Two things that help me:

(1) Practice reading the rhythms *without* following the ties over the bar lines. That means you'll be playing the anticipation as well as the downbeats. When you get comfortable with that, start tying the notes as notated.

(2) Tap your foot four beats to the bar no matter what. You'll look and feel like an idiot, but it'll keep you grounded and stop you from turning the beat around.

[Gornick]

Ahh, well, I didn't grow up with it, but I have been listening to it for quite a long time and love the music. When I forget the notes and written rhythms and just play, it feels much much better, so that's good to know.

This little study has been a revelation though, in that I think in some cases I was listening to the music with the thought of the 1 where the 4 actually is, so I am straightening all that out, which is good... some of those Palmieri things get real tricky... Los Van Van is a little easier, since Juan often lays on the one or the clave, if I got all this right.

I tried tapping on the one and three and that helped to feel the syncopation, but again was easy to turn around, sorta like tryin' to dance to the stuff

thanks again, keep the tips coming!

[Freddels]

The Clave. It doesn't change.

[Zachmozach]

Originally Posted by Gornick

Also, if any of you have worked out the book with the CD's, do you find a couple tunes speeding up just slightly or is that just me....no complaints, as the energy of the performances is quite nice.

If you pay attention closely lots of latin music does this. I didn't really pick up on it till I started studying bata drumming. They gradually speed up throughout. Then I started listening to more afro-cuban and latin music and they tend to like to speed up gradually. It's pretty cool IMO.

[ToR-Tu-Ra]

I'm no expert but heres my take on this "latin" stuff.

Counting: The beat is the half note, not the quarter. At least that's how I see it. Sometimes I've seen it written in kind of a "double-feel" with sixteenth notes syncopated. That's strange for me, but there's people who do it that way.

Feel: The Clave. try to really get into Son and Guaguancó claves. Those are the most used. Everything is ruled by the clave. all melodic and rhythmic phrases are built upon the clave. This is what gives each tune it's own sound. Listen and learn the difference in feel between 2/3 and 3/2.

Once you get comfortable with all of the above, forget everything and just play, enjoy the music. If you're playing more traditional stuff, keep it simple. Focus on groove.

Cheers

[David Kaczorowski]

You have to feel it in relation to the clave.

Originally Posted by reedo35

Also, in a real world latin band, you are usually looking at some incomprehensible hand scribbled lead sheet, and some guy next to you is screaming directions (or insults?) in some hispanic dialect.

LOL! You brought back a lot of memories.

[Marc Piane]

I've learned the most from playing with drummers that really know how to play the style. Very often the bass rhythm is also in the bass drum.

[jumpinin]

Originally Posted by Gornick

Ahh, well, I didn't grow up with it, but I have been listening to it for quite a long time and love the music. When I forget the notes and written rhythms and just play, it feels much much better, so that's good to know.

This little study has been a revelation though, in that I think in some cases I was listening to the music with the thought of the 1 where the 4 actually is, so I am straightening all that out, which is good... some of those Palmieri things get real tricky... Los Van Van is a little easier, since Juan often lays on the one or the clave, if I got all this right.

I tried tapping on the one and three and that helped to feel the syncopation, but again was easy to turn around, sorta like tryin' to dance to the stuff

thanks again, keep the tips coming!

Being born into it certainly doesn't hurt but is not absolutely necessary. I believe it was at a Pete Erskine clinic I heard the story of some guy praising Robbie Ameen's playing and asking him if he was Cuban or Puerto Rican and Ameen said "Me? I'm Lebanese".

The one I found the toughest to internalize was the tambau (sp?) where its dotted quarter, dotted quarter, quarter note and the quarter note on four is tied to the dotted quarter note of the one in the next bar. I used to practice it in my head while walking, where each step is a half note. I agree with the idea that the pulse in latin music is the half-note. It also helped that I got to play with quite a few Portuguese musicians.

[Gornick]

I'm with the half note pulse. the four on the floor with the foot didn't do much for me. the CD and the book has me really listening to the percussion and I can hear the 1 and 3 as well as a snap on the and of 2 which seems akin to the hihat in bop. I have really started listening to this stuff differently now, the percussion sticks out more now than the bass and piano...

This book is a good pickup for those who weren't lucky enough to be born with it around. This is the same process I went through a long time ago to swing on the 2 and 4, it'll happen.

thanks, I'm looking forward to the hispanic dialect lessons too.

[David Kaczorowski]

I'm sorry, but it's absolutely wrong to talk about the pulse or anything being on the half-note, quarter-note, or any other metric value. The only way to feel anything in afro-cuban music is by feeling the clave. There is forward clave and reverse clave. On the 3 side, the bass is with the clave, against it on the 2 side.

When playing the tumbao with the 4 tied over the bar, it might help to mime playing a note with your right hand while letting the note ring out with the left.

BTW, I think Stagnaro's book is excellent. You have everything you need to function on a salsa gig in the first 3 or 4 sections, and the CD's smoke.

[Bass Boy]

One of the best things I did was learn the basic percussion patterns. It really internalizes the clave and shows how the parts all fit together to create the big picture. The Salsa Guidebook is great for this as well as typical forms and instrumentation. Also listen to it 24/7!

[David Kaczorowski]

A great thing to do is listen to afro-cuban music, listening specifically for the clave (usually it's only implied and not actually played), determine if it's forward or reverse, and clap along.

[chicagodoubler]

3 pointers.

Transcribe the style, and find some players you really like. When I found Sal Cuevas I thought I had died and gone to heaven. Transcribed a whole notebook full of his stuff. Then, for some reason, I started getting compliments on my tumbao. Funny, eh?

Try tapping clave with your foot. Really helps alot.

Learn the basic percussion patterns. Learning to play tumbao on congas really helped me to understand my function in the salsa section.

[bopeuph]

This is something I remember quite well; it was probably the first turning point to me becoming a serious bass player.

When I was a freshman euphonium student at FSU, I fiddled around on this crappy "Cruise" slab. The bass player for the salsa band was principal in the symphony, the bassist in the jazz band, and in the salsa band. He was sheddin and rehearsing so much, he had to stop playing because he got tendinitis in one hand, and carpel tunnel syndrome in the other. That's when a friend came to me, because no other bass player would play it.

It took me a long time to get it. But there were a few things that helped me out. One, being Italian from a close-knit Italian family, it was a little strange going from a central Florida beach town to this middle of nowhere redneck town. Believe it or not, FSU had a huge Latino population. I met a few Cubans in the school of music, and they took me in. Interesting how the old fashioned ones are quite a bit like old fashioned Italians.

Anyway, they took me to salsa clubs, dances, and these guys would not only listen to the music while hanging out at someone's place, they would also dance to it! They made me learn to dance salsa.

About a year into it, I finally started getting the steps, but the tumbao was still coming along clumsily. Nestor Torres made an appearance with our band and came out with us to a latin jazz gig said bassist was at. One of the girls grabbed me onto the dance floor. Nestor (who was playing with the group at the time), finished his solo, came up to me and said "THAT'S IT!!! If you can dance it, you can play it!" He sat and talked to me about how they relate. It was that week that it clicked.

There was so much insight into that. All the famous Salseros are very capable of dancing as well. Salsa is very central to the Latino tradition. I think that's something jazz was missing with some players. We are playing dance music, so we should understand the underlying feel to the music.

And let me tell you, the Latino tradition is super rich, with their music, their food, and their women! It's a group of people who know how to have fun. Get out there and envelop yourself in that!

Nick

[bopeuph]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

Learn the basic percussion patterns. Learning to play tumbao on congas really helped me to understand my function in the salsa section.

Playing the basic congas tumbao while humming the bass tumbao works wonders.

Nick

[chicagodoubler]

Nick is so dead on about learning how to dance.

And especially about the women...

Surprised nobody mentioned that earlier- date a hispanic woman, take her dancing, and go to a fiesta.

[tinyd]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

Learn the basic percussion patterns. Learning to play tumbao on congas really helped me to understand my function in the salsa section.

Yeah, I'll second (or third) that. I've played bass for a long time, but learned to play the congas (and other cuban percussion) before I tried playing bass tumbao, and it made a world of difference. It still took me months before I became OK at the bass stuff, but I've heard it said that anyone who plays cuban music should be able to play at least some percussion, and I'd agree with this.

[ElectrAcoustic]

Originally Posted by Freddels

The Clave. It doesn't change.

+1, what you play and more importantly don't play is completely determined by clave.. and there are a few of them.. don't do like I did and practice with a 3/2 clave pattern.. turns out most salsa is 2/3... doh! then there's rumba clave, etc.. anyway, you can set up a clave on "reason" or some other drum machine pretty easily and just practice your chord charts.. at least for the most sections it's a lot of root/5th stuff but can get surprisingly inventive as you're usually ahead of everyone else.. when you get into bigger salsa bands, there will be plenty of sight reading on bridges, intros & outtros... that usually where the arrangers/band directors have their fun.. great for getting your rhythm reading together as those bridges can get pretty syncopated and such but the most important thing for you is the tumbao pattern.. as a bass player, you're also the reason the dancers dance so you really have to be aware of clave in the back of your mind, even when it's not being played.. Don't get discouraged if it doesn't come naturally right away, people spend their whole lives on clave.. I also recommend checking out as much of the older cuban son & rumba as you can.. Listen to them night and day and it'll sink in pretty quickly.. What they do and don't do will be like light dawning on marble head.. was to me.. a couple examples..

Sierra Maestra
Compay Segundo
Eliades Ochoa
Cubanisimo
anything Buena Vista Social Club
Cachao & Cachaito
Los Naranjos
Los Van Van

Hope that helps...