Learn classical to improve jazz?

[AZNBassist]

I wasn't too sure where to post this thread, so the moderators can move this to the right spot if necessary.

Anyways, I was just thinking about the topic of how a lot of people I've met say that learning classical music will improve my jazz playing. Don't get me wrong, I do play classical music (not very well though ), I like playing it and I have a great respect for it and the people who play it, but I've just been wondering about how people always say musicians with classical music background playing jazz will play better than musicians with just a pure jazz background. I'm wondering besides pure technique (such as the left-hand intonation) and sight-reading (not used very often in jam sessions) how else does it help? What do you guys think? How else does playing classical music improve your jazz playing?

[jazzbassnerd]

For me it's a matter of Classical and Jazz being styles of music ... that's it. I want to learn to play the bass, which will include playing classical and jazz music.

I had a very brief conversation with Charnett Moffet during a set break at a club and this was his advice. I asked him about which schools he thought were good and his suggestion was to go get a degree in classical playing because jazz is "just a style of music."

[jallenbass]

IMO it has to do with learning to bow which cleans up your intonation. Chris Fitzgerald is the lone exception to this rule. You don't have to learn classical music to do this but it is one logical place to take it since there is a whole lot of rep aimed at bowing.

[Jake]

I think even Chris Fitzgerald takes arco lesson with the former Louisville Symphony bass player Sid King, though.

[Jake]

This would be a good question to ask Lynn Seaton in the Ask the Pros section of TBDB. I'd be as interested to hear what he'd have to say as you would.

[jallenbass]

Originally Posted by Jake

I think even Chris Fitzgerald takes arco lesson with the former Louisville Symphony bass player Sid King, though.

Yes, but his intonation was pretty darn good before he ever picked up a bow. His journey into arco is fairly recent.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Don't worry, guys - I wasn't planning to try and derail this thread. As I said before, I just screw around with the bow occasionally, and am not taking lessons on the subject more than once a year.

That said, one of my students at the U. swtched from a B.A. degree to a B.M. degree this year, which meant that she was required to take both jazz and classical lessons. While studying with Sid King this semester, her left hand spacing improved a lot, and her intonation got better as a result. She found the prospect of playing juries and playing in playing classes with classical bass principles pretty daunting, though...

I have long been of the mind that the best way to play in tune is to "prehear" in tune when improvising, and I still stand by that. Where the classical/arco experience can help that (IMO, of course) is in the area of executing music in tune when you already know what the notes you're going to be playing are; for this reason, it is impossible to "skate" by bad intonation without it really paining you if you're paying any kind of attention. I think that too many jazz players fall back on a dark sound to mask bad intonation, and you just can't do that with the bow.

Also, for players who still have a lot of work to do to get their LH chops together, all of that Simandl type of stuff is just the ticket for getting the basic LH spacing together. I went through both Simandl books and Petracchi (sp?) pizz while working on LH technique, and feel like it really gave me a better foundation than I would have had otherwise. Once this foundation is established, each player may then branch out in an effort to transcend those fingering concepts in certain musical situations...but as the famous quote from the Dalai Lama goes: "First learn the rules, so you may learn to break them properly".

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by jallenbass

Chris Fitzgerald is the lone exception to this rule. .

Chris was already a pro at the piano and teaching it at his university. All he then mostly struggles with is intonation, unlike most of us beginners, we have to struggle with intonation and also learning how to play jazz as well. Durrl: great guy, bad example.

I think a good jazz/classical example is John Clayton. Wasn't he a principal basses in Holland or something like that for a while? Really great all around player. His arco solos for jazz make me wanna cry.

Anyways, didn't Ray Brown once say that bassplayers should play as many styles as possible, as they all help your bass playing?

[rprowse]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

...but as the famous quote from the Dalai Lama goes: "First learn the rules, so you may learn to break them properly".

Words of wisdom.
Certainly having a concept of technique or knowing the road map gives you a head start. Personally, I was very grateful for my classical training when I first started studying jazz. Actually, before I got into double bass, I started working on bass guitar. In my Classical life I had been a violinist. I discovered (back in the 70's) that there were no good books on bass guitar. My classical training allowed me to reason out a good technique. I still play my bass guitar and my present technique is built on those early decisions. I know that at our local jazz university people learn virtually from scratch and they have produced some very good players. However, recently I saw a young classical player who was learning jazz. In my opinion, his command of the instrument was a long way ahead of the young jazz graduates that I have seen... he could play over the whole fingerboard, used the bow for things other than the last note and had very good intonation.
It remains to be seen if he can digest the finer points of jazz playing, but I'd put money on him being successful.
Merry Christmas.
Richard.

[WillBuckingham]

Originally Posted by AZNBassist

I'm wondering besides pure technique (such as the left-hand intonation) and sight-reading (not used very often in jam sessions) how else does it help?

You never know when you'll get a call for a reading-intensive gig. I subbed for a university big-band a few weeks ago which was all written-out parts and really botched a few places.

[Bassist4Life]

I got my degree in music education and my major instrument was double bass (classical). I didn't begin to gain a love and appreciation for jazz until just a couple of years ago.

I think that classical has given me a good foundation in technique; however, they are very different styles.

I also feel that classical study makes my playing sound a little too neat and clean. It doesn't have the feel that long time jazz players have. It's going to take me a very long time to feel comfortable being a jazz musician.

I'm sure that there is some transfer between the styles; however, I don't think you need one to help the other.

Joe

[chop_1992]

I studied a bit of "classical" bass when I was first starting out — which means that I played first in a youth orchestra and then a college orchestra for about a year. I think a lot of players who say that they studied classical music probably took some private lessons with an orchestra teacher, went through Simandl, and played the Eccles Sonata or something like it. Those are all good things to do to learn the bass and to approach a certain part of the bass tradition. When a famous/really good player says that a young bass player should "study classical music," I think they sometimes mean that one should study "music" with a lot of "discipline." The study of classical music implies taking a serious and disciplined course of study to learn a basic musical canon.

A bass player can do the same thing with jazz repertoire by approaching the music in a very disciplined and organized way — and never pick up a Simandl book. Classical and jazz music are closely related cousins

I think most of my technique came from practicing jazz — pizz and arco. I do like to play through some classical repertoire and etudes with the bow, because some of it actually sounds good. But when I want to play a solo on "Moments Notice" with the bow, I'm not going to get that together by practicing Bach. I like to practice what I am performing on the bandstand. I do not want to imply that the players who have studied classical music can not play jazz . . . there are plenty of players who can tear it up in both styles (Clayton, Pattitucci, Garcia-Fons) and not break a sweat. I am saying that the jazz players who have learned the bass very well by mainly practicing jazz can still have good intonation and bow technique if they work hard on intonation exercises, playing ballads with the bow, playing swing and straight-eighths with the bow, reading notes with the bow, and reading changes with the bow.

If you want to have good intonation, you just have to work your butt off practicing to play in tune. Really practicing a classical method, or really practicing jazz will help you realize that goal. Hacking through Simandl or the equivalent because it's "supposed to help," won't help.

Sometimes at the Aebersold Summer Jazz Workshops, Chris Fitzgerald and I will go in a practice room for a couple of hours and have a fencing dual with our bows. But that belongs in a different thread.

John Goldsby
john@goldsby.de

[Zachmozach]

Why not instead of thinking of classical and jazz as distinctly two different styles find were they are the same. Really they're not all that different IMO. Either way you look at it though, when you go to learn any instrument you should learn its tradition. I don't plan on being a real "classical guy" but I plan on playing classical literature well. I personally think it's a good idea to approach music from as wide as a perspective as possible and narrow in on things that jump out at you along the way without closing off the perspective.

Look at how playing drums has influenced Brian Bromberg's bass playing or Jaco's for that matter. Besides classical training and jazz training seem to run side by side in a lot of ways too me.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by chop_1992

Sometimes at the Aebersold Summer Jazz Workshops, Chris Fitzgerald and I will go in a practice room for a couple of hours and have a fencing dual with our bows. But that belongs in a different thread.

John Goldsby
john@goldsby.de

I'll never win one of those as long duals as long as I live. My only advantage is a cheaper bow. Do they make 'em out of kevlar?

Your bowing really shines on "Tale of the Fingers" on the title cut. If I could learn to pull that singing arco sound out of the bass half as well as you do on that rekkid, I'd die happy.

[Ale]

There is something special listening to "jazz-players" that have studied or playing a lot of classical music before. Its something about having full control of the instrument.
I also find it very intresting to hear jazzplayers who picked up their Arco playing in to the improvisational part of the jazz , such as Avishai Cohen , J.P , Miroslav etc.
Though i dont think one part is essential for playing the bass , but every musician can learn something from every part of the music. Me myself , studying with classical proffesors have given me a lot to LH teqnique and the respect of the instrument , though i feel my intonation comes from the basic scale pizzicato playing.

Have a nice christmas / Ale

[pnchad]

Did a whole album of Bach a few years back.

I think that (as said above) they are just styles. BUT, you do need to be intimately familiar with the forms and expectations of the bass' role to be convincing. Technically you can play the notes in tune & in time and still not pull it off.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall....

[rprowse]

I find that working on the Bach cello suites gets me out of my comfort zone. I have a large arco 'improvised' repertoire that I continuously work on. The problem is that, when you are improvising, you can fall into the trap of always playing things that are comfortable under your fingers. I find that the Bach takes me out of this comfort zone and challenges me to work on new techniques or fingerings. I believe that this tends to keep my improvising fresher. I suppose you'd get the same workout from Charlie Parker heads.

[jsbachsonata]

As one of the members said before... jazz and classical are just styles of music. However, when ppl say that it is beneficial to learn classical, it does not mean that you should immerse yourself totally in the style. Playing styles that are very effective in controlling the instrument came from disciplined studies of great classical players like simandl, rabbath, karr, etc. , and i guess that if you go through this, this will help playing jazz in the long run. Jazz is a style is constantly changing and improvisatory needs are never clearly set for the student. You can have all the music theory in the world but when you want learn to utilize or force yourself to utilize unkown territories of your instruments you will have to resort to classical training exercises. Plus, the bow is really honest with you. If a note's out of tune it will tell you. While a somewhat less "sustained" tone from a pizz might not reveal this to you. This is just my opinion.

Some people have the crazy ability to devise their own way of improving their chops through jazz studies, but I think this is hard, because of the "free" nature of jazz. What do you want? What does the band want? How should I study? It's really all up to you in the jazz world, so using the classical method will be like just picking up dictator that says "ok you have to do this, this, and this to improve". I mean this is an exaggeration but you get the picture. And when you've gone through this kind of training the skills you acquirec will be yours to use in your jazz playing. Don't worry about being boxed in. Once you learn the boundaries of your box then you can finally think out of the box. Classical training will not go to waste.

By the way if you are from TAS a big "hi" to you. You should probably know who I am. If not then just ignore my last two sentences Best of luck.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by chop_1992

I studied a bit of "classical" bass when I was first starting out — which means that I played first in a youth orchestra and then a college orchestra for about a year. I think a lot of players who say that they studied classical music probably took some private lessons with an orchestra teacher, went through Simandl, and played the Eccles Sonata or something like it. Those are all good things to do to learn the bass and to approach a certain part of the bass tradition. When a famous/really good player says that a young bass player should "study classical music," I think they sometimes mean that one should study "music" with a lot of "discipline." The study of classical music implies taking a serious and disciplined course of study to learn a basic musical canon.

A bass player can do the same thing with jazz repertoire by approaching the music in a very disciplined and organized way — and never pick up a Simandl book. Classical and jazz music are closely related cousins

I think most of my technique came from practicing jazz — pizz and arco. I do like to play through some classical repertoire and etudes with the bow, because some of it actually sounds good. But when I want to play a solo on "Moments Notice" with the bow, I'm not going to get that together by practicing Bach. I like to practice what I am performing on the bandstand. I do not want to imply that the players who have studied classical music can not play jazz . . . there are plenty of players who can tear it up in both styles (Clayton, Pattitucci, Garcia-Fons) and not break a sweat. I am saying that the jazz players who have learned the bass very well by mainly practicing jazz can still have good intonation and bow technique if they work hard on intonation exercises, playing ballads with the bow, playing swing and straight-eighths with the bow, reading notes with the bow, and reading changes with the bow.

If you want to have good intonation, you just have to work your butt off practicing to play in tune. Really practicing a classical method, or really practicing jazz will help you realize that goal. Hacking through Simandl or the equivalent because it's "supposed to help," won't help.

Sometimes at the Aebersold Summer Jazz Workshops, Chris Fitzgerald and I will go in a practice room for a couple of hours and have a fencing dual with our bows. But that belongs in a different thread.

John Goldsby
john@goldsby.de

One of my students a few years ago was getting tired of Simandl and other classical pieces and said "Can't we 'take a break' and work on some jazz", the implication was that jazz would be easier, so I said ok, open the book to "Autumn Leaves", Bow the melody, then play all the arpeggio's with the bow, then play all the chords as double and triple stops.
In my mind classical methods are the quickest way to to learn how to play the double bass well, but only playing jazz is going to help you play jazz, just like any other style of music.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by AZNBassist

I wasn't too sure where to post this thread, so the moderators can move this to the right spot if necessary.

Anyways, I was just thinking about the topic of how a lot of people I've met say that learning classical music will improve my jazz playing. I'm wondering besides pure technique (such as the left-hand intonation) and sight-reading (not used very often in jam sessions) how else does it help? What do you guys think? How else does playing classical music improve your jazz playing?

AZBassist,
Long ago in a galaxy far away when I was studying "Double Bass" as an undergraduate student, the Ray Brown Jazz Bass book was the only method around until Rufus Reid wrote the Evolving Bassist. Most of my "Jazz Education" was on the gig training, where I learned lots of tunes. My four years of undergraduate work in Double Bass was very beneficial from the standpoint of intonation, reading, and of course arco playing especially solo bass literature.
It's a slightly different world now. There are a plethora of Jazz Bass Methods and even new "Classical Bass Method's." Michael Moore's two books are very well written and cover the most of the same material that Nanny Bille, and Simandl do, so there are now many choices.
I think Gary Karr said it best. You practice technique to enhance your soul. I would add that there are different technical requirements for different styles of music. Learning all the chord qualities over three octaves in all 12 keys can be just as valuable as practicing Nanny Etudes or Simandl Preludes. It's kind of a matter of how self disciplined you are and how you're ears work.
I recently played the Duke Ellington/ Jimmy Blanton Duet on Sophisticated Lady, and to my great revelation learning that piece really had an effect on my other soloing, so it was really worth the time and effort, because it improved my playing.
Conversely, I wouldn't have been able to work out that piece by myself,
if I hadn't spent four years in college playing classical repertoire. All the finest Jazz Players had some classical training. John Clayton studied with Murray Grodner at I.U. after becoming Ray Brown's protegee. Ron Carter went to Eastman, Ray Brown studied with various symphony bassists while he was on the road with the Oscar Peterson Trio, I believe that Milt Hinton was in the Chicago Symphony Youth orchestra, and Paul Chambers studied at Cass Technical High School in Detroit. So it certainly can't hurt you're playing.

Ric