My slab doesn't play like an upright

[SteveC]

I know, of course it doesn't. I am playing in a trio again after a little hiatus and my fretted 5 wasn't really doing the job so I bought a MIM Fretless jazz to bridge the gap so to speak. Put on some TI Flats and went to the gig.

When I play on my slab, I play it like a slab. I solo differently, too many notes, too fast, etc. The walking is OK, but it still doesn't feel quite right. When I play a DB, my soloing seems to instantly turn better, more appropriate and tasteful.

Is this the case for anyone else or am I way out there? I mean, I'm not an idiot, I know I should slow down, play in the style, etc., etc. I'm just wondering if anyone else has this problem and what they do to correct it - short of buying a double bass.

[Marcus Johnson]

Good question. It's hard to edit sometimes when you can zip around like a scared jackrabbit. To be fair, there are some DBers who do the same thing. I've been pretty unleashed on DB on early recordings; they're hard to listen to now for me.

Maybe if you get the sensibility of a singer inside your head, you can approach the instrument with a bit more restraint. Try singing lines to yourself, and imitate the pattern of notes and breathing that occur by nature.

I used to have a really cool fretless bass, an old Hohner semiacoustic that I got for a coupla hundred bucks. Wish I still had it! It was the opposite of the whole Fender J bass Jaco thing. I used to play it in almost an upright position, and in general, I'd pluck the strings a little higher up and with less attack than that bearing down on top of the bridge approach. That seemed to help get a more organic, DB-like sound for me.

Maybe Jaco ruined it a bit for fretless players. As great as he was, restraint wasn't one his strong points.

[grovest]

How about any of these ideas?

* Try playing with the side of your index finger more than the tip (less perpendicular to the string).
* Try raising your action
* What about imagining you are playing trombone?
* EQ a little differently, maybe roll of the very low-end
* Try playing closer to the neck
* How about trading shorter passages with another player?
* Make sure you are not neglecting the full range of your instrument- a solo could cross three octaves
* Are you recording your solos?
* Think about the lyrics to the song
* Maybe don't think, 'I am soloing now', think, 'I'm coming up with a new melody for this tune'

[Sahm]

When I play BG on songs I normally use DB for (because I can't, or don't feel like bringing the Big Bass) I roll down all treble and mid-range on the bass, and a bit on the amp. This forces me to produce all articulation with my hand, unassisted by the clarity of the higher frequecies. It provides some of the thickness in tone you get from the DB, and I adjust my playing accordingly. Obviously, it's not the same as the DB, but it helps! I'll use some DB technique on the right hand too, plucking with two fingers at the same time, instead of one.

[Jason Hollar]

Funny...

I've been having GAS for a clunky old Fender P Bass (with old flats!) for when I can't bring my DB.

I agree though, I'm a totally different player on upright...

On some funky jazz gigs, however, my 5 string Yamaha (w/flats) does a good job holding down the super-bottom end where only organ players can go. It also helps to be in a huge ballroom where the natural acoustics take a little ping out of the electric bass sound.

Otherwise, I stick to Simandl and try to "think" upright on electric.

[damonsmith]

I only play slab in lessons but sometimes even when teaching slab I just have to pick up the upright to demonstrate one thing or another. Normally has to do with time. It isn't facility - I can play faster on upright than I ever could on the slab, it seems to have to with the force you put in and resistance you get from double bass strings.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I know, of course it doesn't. I am playing in a trio again after a little hiatus and my fretted 5 wasn't really doing the job so I bought a MIM Fretless jazz to bridge the gap so to speak. Put on some TI Flats and went to the gig.

When I play on my slab, I play it like a slab. I solo differently, too many notes, too fast, etc. The walking is OK, but it still doesn't feel quite right. When I play a DB, my soloing seems to instantly turn better, more appropriate and tasteful.

Is this the case for anyone else or am I way out there? I mean, I'm not an idiot, I know I should slow down, play in the style, etc., etc. I'm just wondering if anyone else has this problem and what they do to correct it - short of buying a double bass.

I have had exactly the same sort of experience as you ...


So - I played BG for 20 years or so - but as I approached my 40s I got more into Jazz and realised that I really wanted to play Jazz - but having all that experience on BG I was loathe to become an absolute beginner and was determined to use my BG and try to put what I knew into a Jazz setting.

But it never felt right - I got the dreaded 'Jaco temptation' as mentioned by Marcus and tried to play too many notes and solo inappropriately!!

I'd go to Jazz Summerschool each year and find that BG was great for funky or Latin tunes , but when I had to play swing that I was dis-satisied and would meet people with similar or a lot less experience than me, getting a much better feel on DB!

So eventually a few years ago I took the plunge and have enjoyed playing Jazz so much more - I feel I have gone backwards in terms of how well I can solo, play fast tempos etc. - but it is so worth it, I wish I had started earlier!

I kept one BG but never practice with it and only get it out if somebody wants to play a funky tune!

[Uncletoad]

I try to sing with my solo out loud. Not like George Benson or something. More moaning like OP. It forces me to breathe on occasion cause I have to. Breathing naturally breaks up the flow of junk forcing me into phrasing like a singer . In addition it forces me out of patterns and connects me to the musician instead of the technician. When I start playing with my hands instead of my muse I notice immediately when I'm singing cause I stop singing.

My soloing on EB became infinately better when I started playing DB. I slowed way down and found the space between notes. I discovered that I didn't want to SOUND like a DB player, I wanted to BE a DB player.

Your entrance card is waiting at the door to the dark side.

[fingers]

You guys are being almost civil. There are a few ideas that I think are off base in this thread but in the spirit of civility I'll keep my mouth shut.

John Patitucci has some interesting things to say about technique and making music in general in this youtube video.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well if you're John Patitucci you're talented enough to do anything ..

But I watched that video and he does what I was talking about - so he uses his BG for the funky Latin 6/8 tune and DB for the more straight ahead Jazz tune!

[fingers]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

But I watched that video and he does what I was talking about - so he uses his BG for the funky Latin 6/8 tune and DB for the more straight ahead Jazz tune!

Yup. They are different instruments that are good for different things.

[Damon Rondeau]

Don't forget, too, that they are different instruments with different voices. The difference in voice has musical implications.

I noticed something when I started to play DB. Simple lines that, to me, sounded simple-minded and lame on the EBG took on a kind of authority when played on the DB. They sounded right, all on their own without any input by me other than my hands and my brain. It's because of the voice, the whole overall thing. It's not sort of the right shade of blue, it's exactly the right shade of blue. The same kind of thing happens going the other way, like maybe playing Motown grooves on the DB. Sure, it's not impossible and it might be challenging, but it will never ever bounce the way and EBG can (unless you have a freakish instrument that you play with freakish talent.)

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by fingers

Yup. They are different instruments that are good for different things.

Yes - I think if you are as talented as him and can write your own material which suits DB and/or BG then that's fine - but most of us are playing with other people who have an idea of what "Jazz" means and most of that music is best-suited to DB!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Don't forget, too, that they are different instruments with different voices. The difference in voice has musical implications.

I noticed something when I started to play DB. Simple lines that, to me, sounded simple-minded and lame on the EBG took on a kind of authority when played on the DB. They sounded right, all on their own without any input by me other than my hands and my brain. It's because of the voice, the whole overall thing. It's not sort of the right shade of blue, it's exactly the right shade of blue. The same kind of thing happens going the other way, like maybe playing Motown grooves on the DB. Sure, it's not impossible and it might be challenging, but it will never ever bounce the way and EBG can (unless you have a freakish instrument that you play with freakish talent.)

I can agree with this 100% - so on DB I can play one note and love it - whereas on BG it was always hard...?

Whereas when somebody says "let's play an up-tempo Stevie Wonder tune!" - then I'm reaching to get the BG out!

[fingers]

Yup yup. That's were my problem lies with some of the ideas in this thread. EQ all you want. Play chop with Simandl technique. Guess what... still a chop.

The suggestions to sing and stuff are good though. The ideas are in your head. Not your fingers.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by fingers

The ideas are in your head. Not your fingers.

I agree that in an ideal world and when you are the level of a John Patitucci this is undoubtedly the case!

But when you have a full-time job and other family commitments, don't get to practice or play as much as you would like - then you take any help you can get from your instrument!!

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

Don't forget, too, that they are different instruments with different voices. The difference in voice has musical implications.

I noticed something when I started to play DB. Simple lines that, to me, sounded simple-minded and lame on the EBG took on a kind of authority when played on the DB. They sounded right, all on their own without any input by me other than my hands and my brain. It's because of the voice, the whole overall thing. It's not sort of the right shade of blue, it's exactly the right shade of blue. The same kind of thing happens going the other way, like maybe playing Motown grooves on the DB. Sure, it's not impossible and it might be challenging, but it will never ever bounce the way and EBG can (unless you have a freakish instrument that you play with freakish talent.)

Bulseye! Give that boy a gold star!

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by fingers

Yup yup. That's were my problem lies with some of the ideas in this thread. EQ all you want. Play chop with Simandl technique. Guess what... still a chop.

Of course all that's true.... but the OP ended his post with the phrase "short of buying a double bass", so I think some of the answers are an attempt to actually answer the original question.

If it were up to me, everybody would get a free DB.

[fingers]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

Try singing lines to yourself, and imitate the pattern of notes and breathing that occur by nature.

This is the best advice IMHO.

I read his question differently and maybe he can clarify.

Originally Posted by SteveC

When I play on my slab, I play it like a slab. I solo differently, too many notes, too fast, etc. The walking is OK, but it still doesn't feel quite right. When I play a DB, my soloing seems to instantly turn better, more appropriate and tasteful.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has this problem and what they do to correct it - short of buying a double bass.

To me he is asking how not to zip around and play a bunch of noodles. Changing your sound and technique is not going to fix that. The singing suggestion or Damon Rondeau's thoughts are more the way I try to think about it.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Is this the case for anyone else or am I way out there? I mean, I'm not an idiot, I know I should slow down, play in the style, etc., etc.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has this problem....

I just read this part and was basically saying YES - it's the same for me!