"New Dutch Bass Method"

[bdengler]

Did you see the new web site that discuss the "New Dutch Bass Method" for playing? Here's the link: http://www.silviodallatorre.com/index.php?language=en. The site promotes the concept of a "four-finger" technique. The method seems to be five-fold, and I quote from Silvio Dalla Torre's site:

"1. each finger takes up the optimal position at each time

2. the fingers that are not stopping should always be as relaxed as possible

3. the intonation is controlled by the idea of the note in the mind, and the "orders" sent to the fingers are based on this, and not by a fixed position span

4. a prerequisite for this is the greatest possible flexibility of the fingers including the thumb, and of all the joints involved ("fluent mobility")

5. the thumb plays a special role because it serves as a pivot around which wide reaches of the fingers are possible without changing position ("pivoting")."

So, is the "New Dutch School" promoting four finger technique in which the players uses all four fingers, and "pivots" the finger into the next position? Does the thumb move at all? Have any of you tried the method?

Brian

[Mike Crumpton]

Excellent site Brian!

[FractalUniverse]

New Dutch School

i'm very interested in one of those heavy bows!
(but not sure about some of those fingerings)

[Steve Boisen]

I've seen that web site and also read the article on Silvio Dalla Torre in the new issue of Double Bassist. I'm not quite sure I grasp the fingering method he's talking about, but it sounds a lot like Rabbath with the use of all four fingers and pivoting. Of course, I'm a diehard Simandl player, so I might be missing something.

I think the idea of a heavier bow is the exact opposite of what Rabbath advocates, however.

- Steve

http://kaybass.home.att.net

[Aaron Saunders]

I tried this before rehearsal this morning (around 1:20pm or so,) based on the 5 directions you quoted.

S'not too shabby! Keeping in mind this is also the first time I've ever given 4 finger method on DB an honest shot, it was actually pretty decently comfortable in the higher positions. I'm not a fan of pivoting so much with the left hand in the lower positions, but it does seem to be an intrinsic part of using 4 fingers there. Wouldn't mind developing a fingering system that would combine the two, though. T'would certainly be pretty useful to bang out 4 fingers during a solo or particuarly swanky walking lines -- I used it a bit at practice and it definitely freed me up a bit in the upper registers, very useful "sneaking" up during walking choruses.

[anonymous0726]

#3 is what it's all about, no matter the approach. This has a lot to do with with my 'Chaotic Fingering' stuff that I'm working on...

[bdengler]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

I tried this before rehearsal this morning (around 1:20pm or so,) based on the 5 directions you quoted.

....Wouldn't mind developing a fingering system that would combine the two, though. T'would certainly be pretty useful to bang out 4 fingers during a solo or particuarly swanky walking lines -- I used it a bit at practice and it definitely freed me up a bit in the upper registers, very useful "sneaking" up during walking choruses.

Actually, there is a method that combines both "closed hand" (the Simandl 1-2-4 method) with the "open hand" 1-2-3-4 method. I think it's called the "Simandl Plus" method promoted by Mark Morton of the American School of Double Bass and Thomas Gale, who has method books on the subject. In the lower registers you play pretty much 1-2-4 but once you start moving up the neck, you use all 4 fingers and thumb positions more aggressively.

Brian

[Mike Crumpton]

Where's Savino when you need him. He explaned alternative fingeriings so neatly. Having looked at all these 'new' methods and gone back to the bass I reach the following conclussions:

1) nothing is new
2) 124 works best for me (well it would - I practise that way but my aching hands tell me 124 will last me the distance and 1234 will hurt more and more until...)
3) keeping the hand relaxed rather than hovering over each individual note in a position makes sense to me
4) after having a go at 'new' methods what comes out that works for me personally is 124 but not hovering each over eah note in a position and using 124 indiviually up or down a string rather than fingering say 114 or 441
5) I always pivot on the thumb anyway if doing 114 or 441 or even wider so no change there
6) I am attached to trad Simandl and notions of doing things properly (lets not debate what propoerly is please - I'm sure you get the idea) and trad Simandl has the advantge that when either my ear or the cacophony around me in the band requires a note to be hit out of sheer technique by habit of knowing exactly where it is, Simandl will work and will find all the related notes without stress, panic, looking at the fingerboard or yelling at the drummer to STFU.

I do a bit of BG and have now moved into the Carol Kaye camp from being exclusively 1234. This experience also tells me 1234 won't do for me.

Each to his own, YMMV and etc and I hope to keep an open mind and carry on trying things out. However, at the moment I don't think my hands could successfully cope with the re-built technique and produce improvement and some of the playing stiuations wouldn't help either. If I would I could but something tells me this isn't for everyone. Any comments anyone?

[Savino]

Aside from the fingerings. . . . What I'm most interested in, about this New Dutch Thang is the section on "practicing in flow" They go to great lengths to explain the benefits of it but don't mention any exercises or even how it is accomplished.
i believe that I employ a similar principle to my practise and am curious if it is close to this idea. Anyone have any more info on this.

[neilG]

Originally Posted by Savino

Aside from the fingerings. . . . What I'm most interested in, about this New Dutch Thang is the section on "practicing in flow" They go to great lengths to explain the benefits of it but don't mention any exercises or even how it is accomplished.
i believe that I employ a similar principle to my practise and am curious if it is close to this idea. Anyone have any more info on this.

Practising in Flow

The violinist and graduate psychologist from Bremen, Andreas Burzik, has integrated the revolutionary discoveries of the American-Hungarian researcher Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (pronounced: chik-sent-me-hy-ee) into an innovative and extremely effective practice technique: practising in flow. This makes it possible to reach consciously that blissful state with which every musician is more or less familiar: one becomes totally lost to the world while being absorbed, highly engaged and yet effortlessly involved with their instrument sunk in his playing. All steps of the activity run seamlessly into each other, all sensation of time goes. There is no room for day to day worries, everything is replaced by a deep feeling of well-being and harmony. Doing and consciousness become one. Flow is the psychological term for those extraordinary experiences, which can arise not only when playing music, but in almost all activities. It is the expression of a holistic mode of operation of the brain that adjusts consciousness and enables a process by which even complex activities are carried out with a sensation of intense enjoyment and ease. In competitive sport, the discoveries of flow research have been applied for some time to exploit their creative potential for enhancing performance. The method developed by Andreas Burzik now opens up these possibilities to musicians. Since I became familiar with them, I have been integrating them into the New Dutch School as a central element.

It is, in my opinion, metaphysical, candy-a**, new-age bull. Shave your head, lock the door and practice. In a happy-happy joy-joy sort of way, of course.

[anonymous0726]

It's a flowery way to describe 'The Zone'. The AT stuff (Quickening of the Mind, specifically) has proven to be a very effective tool for me in achieving this with some consistency.

[Steve Boisen]

Originally Posted by neilG

"Happiness is not a riddle,
when I'm listening to that
big bass fiddle."

Definitely Ira Gershwin's best couplet

- Steve

http://kaybass.home.att.net

[bdengler]

Originally Posted by neilG

It is, in my opinion, metaphysical, candy-a**, new-age bull. Shave your head, lock the door and practice. In a happy-happy joy-joy sort of way, of course.

I disagree; Professor Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's concept of "flow" is not some form of "metaphysical new-age stuff" but his way of describing a psychological state in which a person is so engrossed, concentrated and focused on a task that the person is in a state of "flow." The key to being in flow is that the task offers enough challenge to sustain interest and concentration but is not so difficult that it results in frustration. You've probably experienced it while practicing it or even in performing. It's not a "high" or something exotic, just a state of concentration in one's activity.

Regards, Brian

[neilG]

Originally Posted by bdengler

I disagree; Professor Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's concept of "flow" is not some form of "metaphysical new-age stuff" but his way of describing a psychological state in which a person is so engrossed, concentrated and focused on a task that the person is in a state of "flow." The key to being in flow is that the task offers enough challenge to sustain interest and concentration but is not so difficult that it results in frustration. You've probably experienced it while practicing it or even in performing. It's not a "high" or something exotic, just a state of concentration in one's activity.
Regards, Brian

Being in the groove, by any other name.......If the good professor needs to rename it and claim it as his own, I don't care. I daresay you have explained it as clearly as anyone could hope to . Peace,
Neil

[Marcus Johnson]

Happily for me, I spend quite a bit of time in that zone every night. I attribute a lot of it to the high quality of musicians that I get to work with.

The thing that often amazes me is how quickly a four hour gig can pass in that situation. It's like you open your eyes at the end and think "how did we get here?"

[mister_k]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

Happily for me, I spend quite a bit of time in that zone every night. I attribute a lot of it to the high quality of musicians that I get to work with.

The thing that often amazes me is how quickly a four hour gig can pass in that situation. It's like you open your eyes at the end and think "how did we get here?"

i went through a seven hour recording session that was just like that on Sunday. We recorded some somgs for a compiation or tribute or something, and the leader just called the arrangements and the engineer yelled rolling, and the next thing you know it was time to go home.

the only thing better than being in the zone, is being in a band in the zone.

.02

[bdengler]

Originally Posted by neilG

Being in the groove, by any other name.......If the good professor needs to rename it and claim it as his own, I don't care. I daresay you have explained it as clearly as anyone could hope to . Peace,
Neil

I tried. You're right, it's being "in the groove." You're version sounds a lot better than "being in the flow."

Brian

[neilG]

Originally Posted by bdengler

I tried. You're right, it's being "in the groove." You're version sounds a lot better than "being in the flow."

Brian

Brian,
You know, honestly, I wasn't trying to be deliberately argumentative. It's just that I get so frustrated with the state of bass pedagogy and when some professor comes up with something new that isn't new, renames and repackages it, it makes me cringe. Everyone is looking for something innovative and magic, but the tools for success have been there for a long time. I didn't mean to come off sounding like too much of an a**

[Jeff Schwartz]

When I read this Dutch guy talking about "flow," it made me think about flow in yoga, where poses are done in a continuous sequence to increase their effectiveness (Yes, I live in LA. Why do you ask?).
Like most of y'all, I suspect, when I practice, I organize things by musical criteria, like (micro-level) playing a scale with a series of bowings, in various intervals, in 1, 2, and 3 octaves, etc, or (macro-level) having a plan like scales, etudes, walking lines, improvising on chord changes, free improvisation, transcribing, etc.
It could make sense, at least some of the time, to follow a sequence of practice activities based instead on the physical demands of playing, focusing on the relevant body parts in a logical order.
If this isn't what the Dutch are doing, then someone should do it...

[4x4Given]

I *had* to check out this thread, because my (real) name is Dutch.