New York guys: repertoire question

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

Pedagogues- please take note. The current model is NOT preparing players for the real world. Around these parts (an excellent albeit smaller scene than NYC,) the term "college kid" is used as a pejorative.

Kids need more transcription, more analysis of classic albums, and functional grasp of working repertoire. There are tons of "burning" players coming up that I would only sub a gig to if I really really really hated the leader.

Knowing 26-2 and antiquated big band rep is fine and everything, but if we aren't teaching real world job skills we are *woefully failing our students,* and should be admonished for such failure.

One final note- many of us who are moderately competent learned how to play jazz on the stand, with elder professional musicians, not on a friggin' chalkboard.

Sorry for the rant, but this makes me a little more pissed everyday, and a little more terrified about the future of our art. The shrinking audience isn't the main issue; it's the lack of properly trained, passionate, empathetic young artists.

This. In school, no one ever said, "Learn these for real, because in the real world you won't have this big thick book of lead sheets with you." Repertoire is totally downplayed at school, and technique consumes 100% of the focus. So, I'm starting to make up for that, catching up with the rep to where my technique is. I probably spent more time on the film scoring sound stage at Berklee than in the sessions.

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

And just so I understand, are you playing the sessions or just making the hang?

Little bit of both. When I get called up I just take the initiative and start calling tunes. Makes it easier.

[gerry grable]

For what it's worth, this from and article quoting Stan Getz, two years before his death.
I'm posting with good intentions.
GG

“ And the kids have too much, they don’t want to spend time in a cellar having jam sessions, they want to have fun. My little saxophone was a passport for me, that’s all there was to do was to play the saxophone. I played eight hours a day for two years [from] when I was 13 and I left on the road when I was 15.
“That environment is gone. It could be brought back, but why the f—k bring it back? Who cares that much?”

[theretheyare]

To the OP: indeed, ask what the 'stock' tunes are.

As of how to deal with them: I've been lucky enough to have talked to various NY musicians, (some of whom played and/or hung with the likes of max Roach and Roy Eldridge, for example) and here's my condensed version of their shared insights on how they approach repertoire:
1) Listen to recorded versions of the repertoire.
2) sing the song, (including the lyrics.) and/or learn to sing a famous/inspiring solo/verse/part or verse associated with that song verbatim (especially: the phrasing.
3)Once thuis internalized, pick up your instrument and play the song as a piece of music that stands on itself, regardless of your instrument. Chords and their substitutions 'happen' that way, instead of being collectively spelled from a lead sheet.

This may sound steep-but with every song you learn this way, the acquired insights will inform the next one you'll plan to tackle.

There is a notion nowadays that because many charts share the same harmonic ideas and movement, and people learning to play through charts and scales exclusively, the resulting parts being played by players educated the modern way tend to come out sounding the same, no matter the tune.

The described way of working would help counter that. It is radically different from the scale/chordchart based system that is currently taught in schools, but, well if it worked for the greats, then maybe it will work (at least as an additional road to take) for you also. Take care and have fun!

[Ed Fuqua]

And that's the name of that tune.

[pbass888]

I like chris fitzgeralds list of tunes on his website.

[fdeck]

Oddly enough, in my locale there seems to be very little interest in repertoire. It is rare to play a combo gig where there isn't a fake book in front of every player. Or these days, an iPhone. Is this unique, or just a function of being outside of the big cities? I'm often the only guy on the stand who isn't reading from a book.

[chicagodoubler]

fdeck,

In many circles you get a heavy vibe if you need to read on the stand. In some working circles within those circles, you're expected to transpose standards to weird keys, know alternate changes, and play the hits from the classic arrangements. Also, our repertoire is MUCH larger than three books... The iPhone app is pretty universal these days but who wants to be staring at a tiny screen all night?

I don't think this is a big city thing. Find the old guys in your area. Are they using books?

[fdeck]

I've experienced that vibe. I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, I understand that it can be motivated by a genuine love of the music, and respect for the traditions surrounding the performance of jazz standards. On the other hand, I've also observed on rare occasion a sort of cutting-contest mentality that detracted from the performance.

It's true that the players who work without books tend to be older than me. I suspect that a few more players could ditch the books if they wanted to.

For myself, it wasn't a matter of idealism. And I'm far from being a jazz master. I was simply sick of hauling those books around, and wrangling them while holding onto my bass. I also get annoyed by dead air. More than a decade ago I decided to leave my books at home for good.

The young "hot" players in my locale are respectful of the standards, and play them, but are also interested in developing their own unique material. That's one thing I can say for the players who come out of the good college programs -- they can write, at least well enough to impress little old me. And I always enjoy trying new things.

[gerry grable]

A tip to you younger guys: Don't beat yourselves up so much.
Trying to learn all the standards quickly is similar to cramming for a test in school: it's grueling and inefficient. It is a fact that most of the younger guys who can read and write and play rings around (speaking for myself) the older guys, have a limited knowledge of the old standards. How can that be a surprise? I learned the tunes as I learned English, by being surrounded by it day and night. It was on the radio, TV and juke boxes. I hummed it and sang along with the lyrics; it became part of me. My humble opinion is to take your time and be particular, learn the great tunes and put the dittys aside. Relax! It should be fun, not a freakin' contest.

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by gerry grable

A tip to you younger guys: Don't beat yourselves up so much.
Trying to learn all the standards quickly is similar to cramming for a test in school: it's grueling and inefficient. It is a fact that most of the younger guys who can read and write and play rings around (speaking for myself) the older guys, have a limited knowledge of the old standards. How can that be a surprise? I learned the tunes as I learned English, by being surrounded by it day and night. It was on the radio, TV and juke boxes. I hummed it and sang along with the lyrics, it became part of me. My humble opinion is to take your time and be particular, learn the great tunes and put the dittys aside. Relax! It should be fun, not a freakin' contest.

+1

[chicagodoubler]

...unless you want to work.

[ChuckCorbisiero]

Here's a place to start.

[fdeck]

Is that Chris F's list? I downloaded it last night and put the songs in a spreadsheet, because I was curious. I'd say that I "know" about 70% of those tunes, meaning that with a bit of a memory jog, such as the first couple bars, I could play a bass part for the tune without embarrassing myself. Of course it's a much smaller percentage of tunes that I really know inside and out.

In my locale, that level of repertoire is sufficient for me to have earned the reputation of knowing tunes, but obviously it's not even 1% of true mastery.

A subtle trick is to ask what key the tune is in. 90% of players will, without thinking, play the first couple bars in order to figure out the key, which is usually enough for me to dredge the tune back up from the depths of my memory.

[chicagodoubler]

Note re: learning tunes- really focus on where the bridge goes, by scale degree. For example, Moonlight in Vermont is a ii-V to the key of III, then it goes up a halfstep. This is how you play it in Ab for a singer on a session without blinking.

A lot of the time, if the pianist/guitarist knows the tune and I don't, I'll say "oh, I haven't played that in a while; where does the bridge start?" Voila! You learn a new tune in five minutes, and look like a total pro.

[ChuckCorbisiero]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

Note re: learning tunes- really focus on where the bridge goes, by scale degree. For example, Moonlight in Vermont is a ii-V to the key of III, then it goes up a halfstep. This is how you play it in Ab for a singer on a session without blinking.

A lot of the time, if the pianist/guitarist knows the tune and I don't, I'll say "oh, I haven't played that in a while; where does the bridge start?" Voila! You learn a new tune in five minutes, and look like a total pro.

That's what Harold Bradley said to Chet Atkins a long long long time ago and voila....The Nashville number system was born!

[ChuckCorbisiero]

Originally Posted by fdeck

Is that Chris F's list?

Yeah, I stole it. Do you know what the 'F' stands for?

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

Pedagogues- please take note. The current model is NOT preparing players for the real world. Around these parts (an excellent albeit smaller scene than NYC,) the term "college kid" is used as a pejorative.

Kids need more transcription, more analysis of classic albums, and functional grasp of working repertoire. There are tons of "burning" players coming up that I would only sub a gig to if I really really really hated the leader.

Knowing 26-2 and antiquated big band rep is fine and everything, but if we aren't teaching real world job skills we are *woefully failing our students,* and should be admonished for such failure.

One final note- many of us who are moderately competent learned how to play jazz on the stand, with elder professional musicians, not on a friggin' chalkboard.

Sorry for the rant, but this makes me a little more pissed everyday, and a little more terrified about the future of our art. The shrinking audience isn't the main issue; it's the lack of properly trained, passionate, empathetic young artists.

There seems to be some contradictory information here. On the one hand you don't want to sub to "burning" players coming up but then you go on to talk about how you learned to play jazz on the stand. Wouldn't giving them the opportunity help them and expand their horizons?

[ChuckCorbisiero]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

There seems to be some contradictory information here. On the one hand you don't want to sub to "burning" players coming up but then you go on to talk about how you learned to play jazz on the stand. Wouldn't giving them the opportunity help them and expand their horizons?

Cardinal Rule #1 - Never send a "burning" sub.

Cardinal Rule #2- Always confuse younger players when they ask stupid questions.

Please feel free to add more to this list.

[GrowlerBox]

Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero

Cardinal Rule #1 - Never send a "burning" sub.

Cardinal Rule #2- Always confuse younger players when they ask stupid questions.

Please feel free to add more to this list.

Cardinal Rule #3 - If you think there are no stupid questions, you're confused. See Rule #2.