Not ever using a bow?

[rythmicillusion]

Hey Everyone:

New to the DB side of bass playing and TalkBass. Recently acquired a Strunal and have been enjoying the new challenges.

However, I really don't see myself playing with a bow for a while. I use the upright for playing Top 40ish covers, jazz standards, groove based improv, etc.

My question is this: does anyone see and potential pitfalls in sticking strictly to pizz? Anyone else here only play pizz?

Thanks,

-Andrew

[anonymous02282011]

Hi Andrew,

I haven't played any arco gigs since 2001, but I ALWAYS practice with a bow. Intonation is clearer when bowing, so if you are interested in playing in tune I'd suggest keeping your bow in the loop. Bowing also helps strengthen your left hand (your "string-stopping" hand) and helps keep the bass resonant.

I also practice pizz, but that's about 10 - 20% of my practice time.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by adbass

Hi Andrew,

I haven't played any arco gigs since 2001, but I ALWAYS practice with a bow. Intonation is clearer when bowing, so if you are interested in playing in tune I'd suggest keeping your bow in the loop. Bowing also helps strengthen your left hand (your "string-stopping" hand) and helps keep the bass resonant.

I also practice pizz, but that's about 10 - 20% of my practice time.

+ 1. It will also tell you how out of tune you are really playing. There are a lot of threads where it details why. If you want to play in tune practicing with the bow and getting lessons (clearly, you do not have professional teacher!) is a must.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by rythmicillusion

Anyone else here only play pizz?

Yes, although I sometimes play slow scales with a bow as a warmup. I've never used a bow in a performing situation. There has been considerable debate about this, and a lot of people have made a lot of good points. Here are some links:

Arco, how much time do you jazz guys spend on it . . .

studying bass without learning arco

Simandl without bow?

In the final analysis, I can say that I've never seen anything bad come from studying with a bow, and I greatly admire those who do.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

+ 1. It will also tell you how out of tune you are really playing. There are a lot of threads where it details why. If you want to play in tune practicing with the bow and getting lessons (clearly, you do not have professional teacher!) is a must.

Not necessarily, Damon. IMO. Several really good jazz players don't use the bow or practice with one. Don Thompson told me he can't stand hearing himself bow, so he shuns it. Scott LaFaro never practiced with the bow.
Of course, this doesn't apply to many of us, so I agree with you 100% on both issues. Arco and teacher.
I never got along much with either.

[rythmicillusion]

I actually do have a couple teachers (an upright player and a piano wizard) that I go to as regularly as I can. And the one thing I do have going for me on upright is my innate sense of pitch. I often use that and open strings as reference when playing scales (even those with accidentals...I'll throw in an open string as a non-scaler interval to check my intonation accuracy).

That said, I'm starting to get into agreement with the bow side of things. It does highlight the absolute pitch and relative spacing of intervals more profoundly than pizz, to my ears. Good to know that others practice bowing but don't do it on the gig.

Thanks all!

[brake]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Not necessarily, Damon. IMO. Several really good jazz players don't use the bow or practice with one. Don Thompson told me he can't stand hearing himself bow, so he shuns it. Scott LaFaro never practiced with the bow.
Of course, this doesn't apply to many of us, so I agree with you 100% on both issues. Arco and teacher.
I never got along much with either.

That said, I saw Don Thompson with his group (he switched between vibes and piano) a few weeks ago in a clinic setting, and later that evening in a performance setting - Both times, the bassist (Jim Vivian, who is smoking, btw) made great effective use of the bow.

[damonsmith]

OK, so if you you are not Wilbur Ware, Scott LaFaro or Don Thompson, you need a teacher and to practice with the bow.
If you want to gamble with being one of them be prepared to be wrong and spend a lot of time cleaning up bad habits. There are some recordings of Lafaro bowing, though and it sounds good.

[damonsmith]

Also, an innate sense of pitch is absolutely great in the long run but in the beginning it can cause trouble - if you are getting to the pitch by any means necessary you can get real bad habits in a hurry that will keep you from efficient technique and inhibit your ability to play faster or more complex lines.

Music is an Aural art but the bass is tactile and you play it with your hands. Your best hope is good positions and a great ear and even that just isn't enough sometimes for this beast!
It also sounds like you need a DOUBLE BASS teacher.

[hdiddy]

I have joined the DURRRL bandwagon and pretty much have dumped my bow. I always sounded like ****.

I get more out of playing along with a keyboard or somesuch and have focused on just playing jazz. Seems fine. Long legato scales are the closest substitute for me.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

I have joined the DURRRL bandwagon and pretty much have dumped my bow. I always sounded like ****.

I get more out of playing along with a keyboard or somesuch and have focused on just playing jazz. Seems fine.

The trouble is it can "seem fine"! What does Mr. Richman think about that?

[hdiddy]

I got his stamp of approval. I'm supposed to do long scales with it (which I do from time to time) but his feedback was that it's good to get the connection with the notes in the left hand - not so much for intonation. I just pull the bow out to make sure I still have LH endurance with the bow.

[Marc Piane]

I've come down somewhere in-between other brother Durrl and where I used to be. I used to spend up to 75% of my practice time with a bow in my hand. I think the ratio has flipped now.

The difference though is that I have been playing the DB for 17+ years and spent much of the practice time in there with a bow in my hand.

I never use a bow at a gig and think my arco playing sounds like ****. That said I think it is a great way to work on certain things. I made the change that I did not because I didn't see the use in arco but rather to shake up my practice routine.

For most beginners I think arco is a must.

Let's remember Fitzie was a killin' piano player with a degree in music and a good bit of experience behind him before he switched to bass.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

I have joined the DURRRL bandwagon and pretty much have dumped my bow.

Just to reiterate, I have no bandwagon. I'm just doing what seems to work best for me given the constraints of my life. For most people, working with the bow seems to be a really positive thing to do, and improves their playing (especially their intonation) a great deal. I love it when my BM jazz studies bass students get to study with Sid King as part of their requirements - those with basic intonation issues all tend to improve. I can't recommend playing arco as a "must" for jazz players without being a total hypocrite, but I can and do recommend it as a good thing to get some instruction/experience with for perspective if nothing else.

[damonsmith]

I play a lot more arco on gigs than a lot of people so I need to practice a lot more of it. I do a lot of pizz with the metronome lately.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Just to reiterate, I have no bandwagon.

Sure there is. It's just me and you buddy.

Originally Posted by DURRRLFRIEND

I can't recommend playing arco as a "must" for jazz players without being a total hypocrite, but I can and do recommend it as a good thing to get some instruction/experience with for perspective if nothing else.

I think I got what I needed mostly out of it. I'll go back to it now and then but I'm focusing on jazz so I'm dumping it as I don't have that much time to spend on everything. I'd rather put my time into piano or rhythm exercises which I'd get more mileage.

[Bass]

Originally Posted by rythmicillusion

...Anyone else here only play pizz?

Yeah, me. I stood in the same room as a bow once, but never touched one.

[Steve Clark]

(New guy post)

Arco = last note of a ballad. Not mine but I thought it was funny.


I use the bow a bit on my EUB with Light of East before I got my Shen Willow. When band members are playing a taqusim or solo I will sometimes bow a single note while they play above it. I watched a stunning bassist with Savina Yannatou not long ago. Michalis, her bassist was one of the nicest people I met. He would play close to the bridge and make some wonderful sounds. I'm doing things like that in Light of East now on the Willow. But as has been said also practicing scales with it. Very revealing.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I can't recommend playing arco as a "must" for jazz players without being a total hypocrite, but I can and do recommend it as a good thing to get some instruction/experience with for perspective if nothing else.

Well, there are a lot of life choices we make that even if they worked for us we should not recommend them to others. I think you could preface it with while it worked for you not to, the accepted good advice is to work with the bow in practice.

Not at all related to Chris' playing (which most agree sounds great) we just have to ask ourselves is "close enough for Jazz" good enough?

[Mark Perna]

I'm another pizz only player. I misplaced my rosin about 10 years ago and never replaced it.

I have played with a bow. I started playing bass in high school orchestra so I learned to play the upright primarily arco. That was MANY years ago, though.

When I hear guys like Renaud Fons Garcia play, I have a pang to try arco again but I count to ten and the feeling passes. That style of bass playing is so removed from what I do that it might as well be another instrument. I think if I had lots of time to practice though, I'd probably work on arco and try to work that kind stuff up even if only to amuse myself. I don't have the time anymore so it's academic.

I don't believe that you have to practice arco to have good intonation. There are plenty of ways to check intonation pizz. Double stops particularly with open strings are good ways to check intonation. Arpeggios are easy to hear. I got my thumb position intonation and hand strength together playing the Bach Cello Suites (all in thumb and all pizz). In addition to being great music, they can be great exercises. They are very chordal so it is really easy to hear if your intonation isn't in. Recording yourself playing with others is another great way to check your intonation.

It's always dangerous to say you have good intonation but I've done a ton of recordings and there are very few cringe worthy moments.

Damon: what album did Scott Lafaro play arco on? I thought I had every album he ever played on and the only time I remember any arco is on the new version of Evans' Vanguard recordings. Before the first tune, you can hear him tuning up with a bow. Did he use it with Ornette and I just don't remember it?

mark