Out of Tune Pianos

ctxbass · #1 12-01-2007, 01:07 AM

I have always lived by "let you ears be your guide", but I was wondering if anyone had any words of wisdom concerning this. Finding a tonal center can be a real chore at times, even tuning to the magic Em 11.

fingers · #2 12-01-2007, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctxbass

Finding a tonal center can be a real chore at times

Sure can. This time of year is the worst in Chicago too. Lotsa big weather swings.

I try my best to adjust my tuning for the piano but sometimes I just take out the old electric tuner and then do my best. Sometimes I'll take a sampling of the piano with the tuner and see if it is generally sharp or flat but most of the time an out of tune piano is... we out of tune.

Sucks. Unfortunately lots of club and restaurant owners think "well, we have a piano" but look at it as a visual prop and don't realize it needs care.

adbass · #3 12-01-2007, 07:55 AM

if a piano is being serviced rarely, piano tuners will often tune flat -- if i remember correctly it's because the piano will stay in tune longer.

otherwise, you really have two options: make those minor adjustments with your fingers such that you try to be in tune with the piano, or just play as in tune with the A440 tuning as you can and let the piano sound out of tune against you (and the other players).

Pat Harris · #4 12-01-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adbass

just play as in tune with the A440 tuning as you can and let the piano sound out of tune against you (and the other players).

While you can do this, it's been my experience that even if your intonation is dead on as a bassist, and the piano is out of tune, you're going to be the one sounding "out." Chordal and higher voiced instruments always win the intonation battle even though it's supposed to be grounded from the bottom up.

kbr · #5 12-01-2007, 10:28 AM

I've gotten in the habit of bringing a tuner I can calibrate to other instruments just for that eventuality. Once it's calibrated to the piano and the other instrumentalists tune to it, we all sound much better as a whole. This doesn't do any good if the piano itself is all over the place tuning-wise though. In that case, I pick a note on the piano in the middle tuning-wise of the most sharp and most flat note and calibrate to that. Hope that helps.

chop_1992 · #6 12-01-2007, 11:37 AM

Maybe you should only work with guitar players -- they are never out of tune, are they?

damonsmith · #7 12-01-2007, 12:01 PM

In non free situations, I try to adjust, but NEVER tune the bass to them. How can you know if the "A" has anything to do with the rest of the pitches on the piano, they don't go out of tune at the same rates.

In free music it is the pianists problem, they can get under the hood and work with the strings directly.
It can really be a pain in the ass, the way the piano is supposedly "Law", it can do a lot of damage to existing intonation insecurities.

Audiophage · #8 12-01-2007, 12:08 PM

There isn't really a whole lot you can do about it. Each string of a piano isn't going to fall out at the same rate, but the general assumption is that if we tune each of our strings to the pianos notes that we will be more likely to be in tune with the whole instrument.

damonsmith · #9 12-01-2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audiophage

There isn't really a whole lot you can do about it. Each string of a piano isn't going to fall out at the same rate, but the general assumption is that if we tune each of our strings to the pianos notes that we will be more likely to be in tune with the whole instrument.

That is a really bad idea, the bass strings should remain in 4th/5ths/what ever tuning you normally use. Ears and positions need to work together, relying on only one or the other is the wrong idea, throwing off our positions for an out of tune piano is just a recipe for bad music.

fingers · #10 12-01-2007, 01:14 PM

I'm with Damon here. You have to be in tune with yourself.

fingers · #11 12-01-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonsmith

How can you know if the "A" has anything to do with the rest of the pitches on the piano, they don't go out of tune at the same rates.

This is exactly why I like to tune to some kind of A chord.

flatback · #12 12-01-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonsmith

That is a really bad idea, the bass strings should remain in 4th/5ths/what ever tuning you normally use. Ears and positions need to work together, relying on only one or the other is the wrong idea, throwing off our positions for an out of tune piano is just a recipe for bad music.

+1
If your own instrument is not in tune and in tune with itself then you have no possibility of adjusting individual notes on the spot, its just a mess. If you are in tune (electronic tuner) then you can use your ear to do your best... there are a lot of tricks to minimizing the intonation train crashes: adjusting, short notes, staying low, space, (making the piano player use space...) avoiding ballads.
Nothing sounds worse then a sweating bass player trying to hook with an out of tune piano on a ballad trying to still play his normal ****.

damonsmith · #13 12-01-2007, 01:34 PM

Unless they are the leader, it should also be on them to fit in, and not just on us.
There is no reason they should get a free ride when we get the stink eye for
bad notes.

Pat Harris · #14 12-01-2007, 02:08 PM

I think I was unclear... NEVER would I tune the bass so it would be out of tune with itself. I took the question as if the whole piano were flat or sharp, yet the piano was pretty much in tune with itself. That being the situation, I have no problem adjusting my overall tuning (the bass as a whole). It's like playing in solo tuning-- you still finger an A even if a B is the sounding pitch. Now if the whole piano is wacked, I just hope for the best and constantly adjust... or hope the audience is talking louder than the band

flatback · #15 12-01-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Unless they are the leader, it should also be on them to fit in, and not just on us.
There is no reason they should get a free ride when we get the stink eye for
bad notes.

I keep an eye patch in my gig bag in case someone gives me the stink eye....then sometimes I close the other one.

ctxbass · #16 12-02-2007, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

Unfortunately lots of club and restaurant owners think "well, we have a piano" but look at it as a visual prop and don't realize it needs care.

I have a temperature and humidity gauge with memory and I may take it and leave it on stage for a few days. I don't think the management realizes the changes the piano is subjected to.
My fear is that they might just pull the action and stick a digital keyboard in the key bed. The visual prop remains but.......