playing along vs. across the strings

[dhosek]

Nope. My old teacher once said that just about everything's been tried and there's a reason why certain techniques are used. I did a recording session last month on double bass and there was a line which seemed like it was a natural to play across the strings. I could not get the intonation to sound good. I moved to playing it up the G and intonation was dead on. Of course that's partly also a matter of how I practice, no doubt, but as was noted earlier, it's a lot easier to maintain consistent intonation up the string than across.

Re-reading the thread, it also occurs to me a couple reasons why people might think that there's a better case for across fingering playing arco:
(1) Playing arco, string crossings are more difficult to manage than playing pizz
(2) Pizz players don't hear intonation problems that leap out when you put bow to strings
(3) Get a teacher

[Daniel Baskin]

Brooklynbassguy brings up a very good point. playing on one string ensured intonation because the strings didn't stay intune for very long. This doesn't by any means lessen the usefulness of along string technique, but offers the theory that Simandl may have used more across string technique with today's strings.

Another factor along similar lines in across string playing is that of equal temperment. A scale played one place in one way may not be the same as the same scale played in a different manner. String crossing technique may sound better when played around the Perfect 4th and 5th areas of each string but not quite as good at other places.

Chasarms also brings up a good topic. If you are playing a lot of fifths down and fourths up (parallely), across the strings is definately the way to go--even 6ths down and minor thirds up.

This is my first time seeing this so I just read it through for the first time and I what I got from it was what Fitzgerald is saying. One shouldn't limit what a kinds of things he should do on his instrument because he can't get it to sound right(or her). Rather, one should learn the technique to do everything he or she can.

Informative thread.

[brooklynbassguy]

One more point:whenever one school of thought believes things can only be one way, somebody else comes along then a revolution. People used to certain the world was flat...
You might also check out Eugene Levinson's "School of Agility".

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I've been thinking about the whole "Along/Across" topic a lot these days as my focus has shifted to simply getting what I'm hearing in my ear out of my bass as simply and naturally as possible. One thing I am discovering is that willpower is an amazing force when it comes to most sounds; if you can really HEAR something strongly and in great sonic detail before you play it, chances are your hands will find a way to produce that sound assuming you have trained them well enough in this practice. I would never argue that physics can be discarded in the face of willpower...but at the same time, even the most perfect physical conditions in the world will not create a beatuiful sound if the person controlling the strings isn't hearing anything worthwhile.

I find myself playing more across the strings for quick, fluid passages these days, and noticing that for the most part, the intonation issue is really just a matter of hearing well and practicing enough. As far as the issue of bowed intontation being easier to hear than pizz intonation, I dunno...I think a lot of that goes back the the individual player and what they're hearing before and as they're playing. My experience so far seems to be that people who tend to play in tune play in tune both pizz and arco, and that those who don't, don't. I also think that strings hava a lot to do with this - I have a helluva harder time hearing the center of the pitch on gut strings than steel, and I find it harder to hear on low tension strings than high tension.

But what made me want to post in this thread was a strange observation: I've been practicing 7th chord arpeggios left and right lately, and I notice that my hand wants to play along the string on the way up and across the strings on the way down. I'm not sure why this is, but my hand is very clear about what it wants to do in these situations. Anybody else notice this, or have any different intuitive tendencies regarding the along/across issue when ascending/descending?

[mje]

Originally Posted by dhosek

... My old teacher once said that just about everything's been tried and there's a reason why certain techniques are used....

And then along comes a Francois Rabbath and everyone stops and says hey, maybe there is a different way... ;-)

In Gene Santoro's bio of Mingus he talks about Mingus arguing with his bass teacher about fingerings and so forth. There's always another way to do it, I suppose.

[David Kaczorowski]

First, I don't know what you've been eatin', but you done grown, Durrl. Your clips sound nice.

Originally Posted by Durrl

.But what made me want to post in this thread was a strange observation: I've been practicing 7th chord arpeggios left and right lately, and I notice that my hand wants to play along the string on the way up and across the strings on the way down. I'm not sure why this is, but my hand is very clear about what it wants to do in these situations. Anybody else notice this, or have any different intuitive tendencies regarding the along/across issue when ascending/descending?

I've definately noticed something similar. I think because of the nature of the shifts involved and the direction the hand is moving in certain fingerings are more natural either ascending or descending. I practice everything a few different ways and what ever happens while I'm performing happens, I don't think about my hands at all. (or maybe that's part of my problem )

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks Dave - Long time no see! I've been eating a steady diet of listening, a music related day gig, and fatherhood...lotsa fatherhood. Sound familiar?

Originally Posted by KACBNAZSORIAWRBKZSMFKI

I practice everything a few different ways and what ever happens while I'm performing happens, I don't think about my hands at all. (or maybe that's part of my problem )

That's pretty much the same as I'm doing, only now the first part of my practice routine involves "performing" each piece I'm working on and recording it, then deconstructing the rough spots. What's nice about it is that I get to follow my intuition and then try to refine it. Most things make perfect sense in retrospect, but things like this ascending along/descending across don't have a neat explanation.

Good to see you back around, bro.

[Hector Wolff]

I feel that both aproaches are perfectly valid, depending on the needs of the phrase. I also feel that these decisions are much more complex when you are talking about bowing, especially in the orchestra, where the all the articulations are marked.

As to which approach contributes to better intonation, I think that depends on the technique you were taught and how well you practiced it. Right from the start I embraced the Simandel technique because that's what my teacher believed in, and it appealed to my sense of logic and structure. However because of this, I am certain that under any circumstances, my intonation is always better across strings.

My teacher who has fast hands an excellent intonation, thinks nothing of ripping up and down on one string, even at really fast tempos, because he feels that at those tempos, it is much harder to deal with cross string bowing, than keeping
the lightning shifts in tune. Myself, as a less confident player with less speed and less perfect intonation, tend to opt for the cross string approach, because, when the tempo gets real fast, I have better odds at getting all the notes out in tune and in time, when I play across as much as possible. But is certainly is harder for me to then get a nice clean articulation.

I am sure that all this will change as I advance, so that eventually the only factor in choosing one approach over the other is the musical phrase.

[ubasshudson]

The only "bad" technique is undeveloped technique. To shift up the string might be the best option for a particular bassist to produce the sound, but a well executed string crossing can sound just as fine if it has been well practiced. Many times we find a comfort zone and then want to insist that it is the only place to be. Musical facism, I think.

[dex68]

Remember one thing, bass players: you get different sound from different areas of the bass. An Eb played in half position on the D-string will sound different from the same note played on the A-string, etc. Playing across the strings can be very efficient and sound good when you get used to it. And you might want that "thick" sound you get from player higher notes on lower strings, depending on the music and your own personal style. Personal style is what it's all about, fellas. And girls.

[Hector Wolff]

While it may not be directly related to the up vs. across debate, I can certainly agree that there are times in orchestra music where an open string, however perfectly in tune and easy to achieve, will simply not cut it, tonewise.

I am thinking of the opening bars of "Finlandia", as just the latest example, since we just did that. Those C# to D notes certainly only had the desired quality when kept on the A string.

[bobnannie]

So I'm three years late to this thread. As one who has been self-taught and recent on BG (for practical considerations. Interest in jazz brings me to DB forum), this thread has been informative and reinforcing. Whether I start playing along or across, 1234 or 124, it seems that the bass line or passage has a different idea and 'dictates' the fingering. Where either along or across works equally well ('technically') they each present with expressive or groove-related differences worth considering. This seems to be the consensus of this thread, no?