Playing With Higher Action

Theborough · #1 08-27-2008, 01:00 AM

I've been playing acoustic for around 6 months now, but I practice religiously 2 - 4 hours a day and have started playing in my high school's combos and big band. The other day the only bass not being used at school was one with action twice the size im used to, im guessing 3-4 cm., or from the middle joint of my index finger to the tip, it was rediculous, but I figured id get stronger because of it and the sound was really big. About 30 minutes into playing through tunes in the Real Book my index finger and middle finger had started to blister it up on my plucking hand. After I went back to my bass at home, I had a much bigger sound and playing faster was easier. As for playing or training and pushing yourself to play with higher action, is it a good thing?, and if so what training/practicing should I do, how much, and when is it unhealthy?

Jason Sypher · #2 08-27-2008, 02:16 AM

I think you may be lucky you didn't injure yourself. You should be very wary of playing an instrument that is set up too high. For a half hour of music you could end up with 6 months of rehabilitation. Low action is very seductive, especially when you are first starting out. Set up your bass with the highest action that feels comfortable and play acoustically as much as possible. This will help you get in touch with the feel and sound of the original masters of the instrument. Once you can get good sound and good feel, try lowering the action slightly in increments. Find that sweet spot where you can still get that big sound but have the facility you need to play the ideas that you hear in your head. I always played with higher action and still do in a sense. I love that big thump and I slap a bit and need to be able to get under those strings. But I'm amazed at how some players get a big sound with very low action. This must just take time and trial and error. I've been playing for years but I'm still trying to get my action down to something that is comfortable in the upper registers. Take your time and do it right. Good luck.

nathanmcnathan · #3 08-27-2008, 08:43 AM

When I first started, my school's bass had action like that, and I hated it - I took it to a luthier and got it setup. My own bass has really low action, and I really hate it, too. You need to find the balance between it being easy to play and sounding good.

dkziemann · #4 09-06-2008, 09:24 AM

I have the perfect balance on my bass... low enough where I can play comfortably for a long time, but it's high enough where I get the most sound out of my bass. It's on the lower side but the setup is great. And it bows so well too

Will Yager · #5 09-12-2008, 05:05 PM

Be careful. No sound is worth permanent hand damage.

bejoyous · #6 09-12-2008, 10:22 PM

I played a jazz gig with no amp ( I was called in an emergency and had no chance to get home for it). I thought, "Hey, I'll just raise my strings up so I get more thump."

A bebop tune can easily be 250 beats per minute and a piece with head, solos and head again can easily last for 10 minutes. Well, 2500 repetitions of extra hard pressing and thumping, my arms were killing me.

Then there was the next 5 tunes of the same.

That gig was the straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back for my arms and was one of the last things I played for 10 years

osmarokuma · #7 09-13-2008, 12:02 AM

My first bass was a chinese bass which I bought for about 600 bucks. The bridge was set really high and I kept it that way. it was really helpful because when I played on a good european bass with low bridge it felt like grabbing an electric bass...my hands would float around. The only problem is for some gigs I often ended up with blisters, however I always took tape and wrapped around my blisters if they started to hurt in the middle of the concert. Now my hands are confortable with any bass and no more blisters come up.

bolo · #8 09-18-2008, 09:34 AM

Gee, I thought I was a manly sort of man. Measured at the end of the FB at 7/16” ~ 11 mm on the G, ½” ~ 13 mm on the E, from the FB surface to the bottom of the strings. At least I think that's high.

But 3-4 cm? Yowza.

I used to have the action lower. Then years ago I went into a string shop and tried a bunch of different uprights. I found I really liked being able to really get under the strings w/ the side of my index finger when I plucked like Jason said. Went home and kept raising the action until I settled where it is now.

damonsmith · #9 09-18-2008, 12:19 PM

It is important to have your strings up enough to dig in - you can always play softer on higher action, but if you have a "touch bass" set up you can't dig in. I keep my string as low as I can while still being able to dig in, when I really need to dig in I play near the end of the fingerboard. I play mostly acoustic. Projection has a lot of factors other than force. The more clear and in tune a note is the more it will project. Also, when playing pizz, arch your right hand over the strings you are not using, rather than leaning on them, if the note you are playing has a match or even a 5th in the overtone series of the strings you are not playing the sympathetic vibrations will boost the sound.

Kevin Hsieh · #10 09-18-2008, 01:05 PM

While my experience on this instrument is nowhere near some of those that have already commented on this thread, I'd like to add my own opinion and experience. Last year, I spent a long time trying to play with higher string height. I raised my mittels up as high as they were on my teacher's bass and tried to play like that. This resulted in a month of hardly being able to play the lines i wanted to play, adjusting technique in an unfavorable direction, and missing notes on my walking line since I was uncomfortable. What was interesting was that my sound wasn't any larger due to the larger string height, my pizz technique didn't really work with the high tension. I lowered the strings after about a month and it was an immediate relief and i felt that i could actually breathe again.

During the summer, I took a lesson with John Clayton, who has a huge sound and is notorious for trying to get his students to play with the biggest sound possible. The lesson went well and I asked to try out his basses to see how his basses were set-up. To my surprise, they were even lower than mine. However his pizz technique makes it work and he gets a huge sound nonetheless.

In my humble opinion, your setup only helps you so far in getting a nice sound. A lot of it comes from training your hands to be the most efficient (less unnecessary movements). If you are playing with strings so high that it hurts and praying that you sound louder on the bandstand now than you did before, then you should stop. Your pizz technique probably doesn't work with the height of the strings. What is more important than testing the health of your hands is getting a good teacher that will teach you how to get the best sound out of your bass in the most comfortable fashion and at the same time making sure you play with a good time and feel.

The bass is already such a difficult instrument with so many physical limitations. On top of that, learning how to play the music and transfer what you hear in your head to your fingers and to the bass is even more difficult. There are so many obstacles in the way from complete mastery and expression. To me, it just doesn't make sense to have more hurdles in order to get an idea out.

hope this helps
Kev

bolo · #11 09-18-2008, 01:46 PM

Kevin that's a great post bro. Sounds like you are learning a lot.

Was there anything that John Clayton showed you that you would be willing to share? Thinking here kind of generic RH or LH technique type things that you really benefitted from.

John Clayton. Very, very cool.

Kevin Hsieh · #12 09-18-2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolo

Kevin that's a great post bro. Sounds like you are learning a lot.

Was there anything that John Clayton showed you that you would be willing to share? Thinking here kind of generic RH technique type things that you really benefitted from.

John Clayton. Very, very cool.

When I showed up to the lesson with John, I was pulling with my fingers hand and arm. So my arm was moving along with my hand. However, John told me to stop using my arm and try to get the same sound with my finger and hand muscles only. I did it and the sound was exactly the same and I saved so much more energy. If you can cut down extraneous movements and get the same sound, do it. He also tried to hip me to the Laborie endpin, which I'm considering getting drilled into my bass this winter.

Uncletoad · #13 09-18-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Hsieh

When I showed up to the lesson with John, I was pulling with my fingers hand and arm. So my arm was moving along with my hand. However, John told me to stop using my arm and try to get the same sound with my finger and hand muscles only.

Doing pizzicato with ones fingers and hands vs. using the big muscles across the back through the shoulders down through the arm doesn't make sense to me. I suppose if a person is doing extraneous movement that doesn't help with producing a tone I can see where that reducing that movement will increase efficiency.

It's a far more efficient use of the body to involve the large muscle groups of the back rather than using one's hand muscles which are pretty small. Carpal tunnel and other permanent injuries can result from sustained strenuous use of the small hand muscles.

I suspect the concept isn't communicated well over the internet. I wouldn't presume to criticize anything John Clayton would teach. Perhaps his teaching is not translating from your lesson with him over what we are reading properly.

I comment only because I don't want someone to misread and encourage the use of small muscles over large for something as physical as the Double Bass.

Kevin Hsieh · #14 09-18-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Doing pizzicato with ones fingers and hands vs. using the big muscles across the back through the shoulders down through the arm doesn't make sense to me. I suppose if a person is doing extraneous movement that doesn't help with producing a tone I can see where that reducing that movement will increase efficiency.

It's a far more efficient use of the body to involve the large muscle groups of the back rather than using one's hand muscles which are pretty small. Carpal tunnel and other permanent injuries can result from sustained strenuous use of the small hand muscles.

I suspect the concept isn't communicated well over the internet. I wouldn't presume to criticize anything John Clayton would teach. Perhaps his teaching is not translating from your lesson with him over what we are reading properly.

I comment only because I don't want someone to misread and encourage the use of small muscles over large for something as physical as the Double Bass.

It's tough to teach something like technique on the interweb. I had trouble wording my previous post as well. All the more reason to get a lesson with Mr. Clayton!

bolo · #15 09-18-2008, 04:57 PM

Thanks again Kevin. And Phil.

Anybody besides me bought Ed Friedland's upright DVD yet? For RH technique, Ed demonstrates three varieties if you will. The finger(s), then the wrist, and then the arm. More variety than the Rufus Reid DVD and the chicken wing, while I consider that excellent too.

The sections on rhythmic inflections for jazz (drops, skips, triplets, pull-offs) is really excellent IMO. So are the sections that introduce LH technique, and a pretty in-depth section on navigating TP. Plenty of excellent ideas for the shed for jazzers.

bolo · #16 09-18-2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Hsieh

It's tough to teach something like technique on the interweb.

Sure, understood. Not downplaying the importance of working w/ a teacher. But I'm glad when people try to discuss technique here. Otherwise this forum would be ... empty.

Thanks again for sharing.

Uncletoad · #17 09-18-2008, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Hsieh

All the more reason to get a lesson with Mr. Clayton!

Boy would I dig that. I need some real input right now. New bass, I suck. I'm not worthy.

Jake deVilliers · #18 09-18-2008, 08:58 PM

"I just got a f*cking amazing bass and I don't measure up." Oh quit snivelling Phil and pull some string, okay?

We'll all feel sorry for you in just a minute buddy, just as soon as we're done being envious!

Uncletoad · #19 09-18-2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

"I just got a f*cking amazing bass and I don't measure up." Oh quit snivelling Phil and pull some string, okay?

We'll all feel sorry for you in just a minute buddy, just as soon as we're done being envious!

****er sounded amazing tonight.

It's ridiculous. I'm a total bastard.

damonsmith · #20 09-22-2008, 06:29 PM

I just had my action brought down quite a bit, and I was toying with the idea of getting some Spiro solos, my repair guy had some that had been on a bass but not used and gave me a good deal so I went for it. I can still dig in and get a huge sound no problem. I will see how the solos pan out over few months. My bass is really singing with less tension on it.