Playing Melody to Standard

Silevesq · #1 11-02-2012, 05:40 PM

Learning melody to standard can be as easy or really difficult but, when do you think a melody is still right or when does it become wrong.

What I mean by that is once someone has learnt a melody he most of the time tries to make it his own. Either by changing rhythm or few note. And then when I'm looking at some version, sometime I find some that are really far away form the original melody, I think of Body and Soul Jimmy Blanton or Billie Holiday. Louis Armstrong especially when he is singing is not singing the way it is "tradionally", I think of Stardust.

So let say I would come up to you and play it like one of these version. Unless you know which version I transcribe would you consider that I am wrong or not and how would you react?
That without considering the fact, I could have past hours on copying the inflexion.

elgecko · #2 11-02-2012, 05:45 PM

Have you ever heard the saying "close enough for jazz". If I can recognize the melody, then it's good enough.

Ed Fuqua · #3 11-02-2012, 06:24 PM

Are you hearing something specific and playing that or are you "changing rhythm or a few notes"? Especially playing standards, there are a lot of folks out there for whom the melody is just the notes. But all of those tunes have a lyric, and the way one phrases that lyric can be as personal as you want it to be, BUT it still needs to reflect the syllables and phraseology of the sentence/phrase that goes with that melodic phrase.

hdiddy · #4 11-03-2012, 02:53 PM

Ed nails it.

Also, if you bend the melody away from the lyrics (or emotional content), does what you play have a solid idea behind it, or it just bs'ing because you tried to bail out of playing severals clams?

Bruce Lindfield · #5 11-05-2012, 07:45 AM

The other thing to bear in mind is that in the past, many Jazz players have taken a popular tune and used it as the basis for something "new" - they might take the chord structure and a few ideas - then integrate it into their set under their own name, with a new-ish melody. The history of Jazz is littered with tunes that can clearly be identified as coming from a popular standard, although changed enough to avoid copyright!

Silevesq · #6 11-05-2012, 08:38 AM

Excellent question from all of you.
I was actually working on Body and Soul and transcribe one of Louis Armstrong singing version.

I didn't tell it was his way of playing it and got told that I was bs'ing the melody and that made me wonder, why some giant can play it that way but I cannot play it like them?

hdiddy · #7 11-05-2012, 11:36 AM

If you play something that you didn't hear in your head, that's pretty much BS-ing. I think its likely that Louis played what he heard in his head.

Greg Clinkingbeard · #8 11-05-2012, 11:51 AM

It's important to learn the melody and be able to play it correctly. Once you can do that, I believe it's acceptable to modify it somewhat. It's not hard to tell when people are faking it. Don't know those two bars? No problem, just make something up. It's insulting.

hdiddy · #9 11-05-2012, 05:27 PM

It's not that it's insulting - it's just a cop out.

gerry grable · #10 11-05-2012, 05:51 PM

[quote=Greg Clinkingbeard;13412526]It's important to learn the melody and be able to play it correctly.

One should always go back to the source--the sheet music if possible. Learn the tune and then do what you feel. It''s called interpretation-- the very essence of jazz. The result will be as bad or as good as you are. If you go to versions of singers or instrumentalists, you're just copying their phrasings. If you're afraid to put your ass out there, you should take up some other form of music.

Greg Clinkingbeard · #11 11-05-2012, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdiddy

It's not that it's insulting - it's just a cop out.

If you don't respect the music enough to learn the melody don't insult the music by attempting it. It's like soloing. You don't have to do it.

r.t.swing · #12 11-07-2012, 11:10 AM

Coming to it as a horn player, if I'm in a section it needs to be together, (If I know the other players intricacies well, we may fill in around each other.) If the melody is mine alone, I play what I hear in my head. I like to sit behind the beat. If I don't hear it I can't play it even if I want to. I transcribe solos, and melodies (doing this helps me with my own voice) but I leave them out of the gig most of the time People don't want to hear a copy of say Miles, I'd never be as good and its not me.

matthewbrown · #13 11-11-2012, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

... it still needs to reflect the syllables and phraseology of the sentence/phrase that goes with that melodic phrase.

I agree with Ed, and would add that you listen to great singers interpret the melodies of standard tunes, as well as noted instrumental versions (e.g. Hawk's Body and Soul, Miles on almost anything, Sidney Bechet..) If you've heard the tune enough it will actually sink in and if you have the necessary technique, it will just inhabit your playing.

I learned early to read treble clef, and I interpret standards freely when I've heard the standard enough time, without a whole lot of fuss. Re-interpreting the melody is almost 50% of my solos now, and I think I (and my listeners!) are much better off for it!

Bruce Lindfield · #14 11-12-2012, 05:42 AM

I attended a great workshop, lead by the singer Nia Lynn and she took a standard and showed how the lyrics enable you to work out the chord changes and the melody; also as has been said - the phrasing - when you know it means something then it helps you remember it.

one4dabass · #15 11-12-2012, 06:50 AM

I think it's about your feeling and your tastes with the theme, but it's linked to your technical possibilities/capacities.
I mean, many jazz players are playing themes with their soul, but also with their capacities to play it.
Some of them "sustain notes" (or don't), or play it an octave lower, some of them play it half time or faster or reharmonise it, or play it with another metric, bowed or not etc...
It's linked to what you've heard, but it's a compromise with reality.
I think a theme is wrong when the aestithetic is not coherent.
JM Pilc Trio is sometimes playing elliptic themes, but you recognize it because it's coherent.
The best advice i can give you is to learn the theme as strictly as possible (with the original spirit to understand it), then, consider your real tastes and what you've heard, define your aesthetic and finally, adadpt it, considering what's possible -or not- to you...
Hope it will be helpful!
Best regards,
Mathieu

contrabart · #16 12-08-2012, 09:21 AM

You don't have to play the melody as written, but if you don't know it, how can you play something that's connected to it? Close enough for jazz? Now that's insulting.

Phil Smith · #17 12-13-2012, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silevesq

Excellent question from all of you.
I was actually working on Body and Soul and transcribe one of Louis Armstrong singing version.

I didn't tell it was his way of playing it and got told that I was bs'ing the melody and that made me wonder, why some giant can play it that way but I cannot play it like them?

Ha ha, it sounds like "learn from the record" but "don't play what you learned".

JGoldberg · #18 12-13-2012, 10:02 AM

One also has to ask 'what's the point?' when giving the melody to the bass. It's the bass player's responsibly to making a case for it. Just playing the melody isn't enough. If it doesn't have some kind of artistic merit it will end up sounding contrived.

smeet · #19 12-13-2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silevesq

Excellent question from all of you.
I was actually working on Body and Soul and transcribe one of Louis Armstrong singing version.

I didn't tell it was his way of playing it and got told that I was bs'ing the melody and that made me wonder, why some giant can play it that way but I cannot play it like them?

Louis Armstrong had great expressive phrasing, maybe you weren't conveying the phrasing in the same way as he did? As in, maybe you got the notes and the rhythms, but not the feel. Just a thought.

TroyK · #20 12-13-2012, 11:17 AM

Here's something to keep in mind, on a record the person playing that melody was playing it with that band on that day. It's unlikely that they came in with a written variation of that melody, they were listening and interacting with the other band members and what was captured is what occurred. That's why it's art and why it's so great to listen to records. Transcribing is a great exercise, but if you transcribe one part and then play it verbatim in an unrelated context, it may not work. Liken it to learning one Spanish expression and then travelling the world and using it with every Spanish speaking person you meet, regardless of context. They might understand, but that doesn't mean that it will feel natural and make sense.

If your bandmates know the record and/or have big ears and go with it, then they might carry you with them, but if not, it may not come off. Likely that if you transcribe Miles Davis playing Stella By Starlight and then go to a jam session and say that you'll take the head and play it that way, some people up there with you won't get it. Likely that if Miles were playing the head to Stella on that stage with those people on that day, that it's not what he would play either. He would so something in the moment.

So, take what you can from the players that you love, but remember that when you're playing with some people that you're in that moment, not the one of the recording date.

My $ .02