Playing a tune through the cycle

[fmoore200]

So I've been expanding my rep (the meager rep that it is ) and was wondering how to play it through the cycle of 5ths.

I think I get how to transpose the melody, but what about the chord progression? Specifically the non diatonic chords?

For example, the tune "after you've gone" in the key of Bb. The first chord is Ebmaj7, but the second chord is Ebmin6... What do I do with that when going from Bb major to, say, F major?

Thanks

[Mushroo]

I recommend to learn the Roman Numeral system of harmonic analysis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_numeral_analysis

For example, in the key of Bb, Eb is the IV chord and Ebmin is the iv chord.
Sof you transpose the harmony to the key of F, then Bb is the IV chord and Bbmin is the iv chord.

Clear?

[hdiddy]

or to reprhase that:
Bbmaj7 and Bbmi7 are the first two chords where they have been transposed up a 5th from the original key (Ebmaj7 and Ebmi7).

If you transpose the melody, then all of the chords have to be transposed respectively as well. Then when you look at the relative relationships between the chords and the "key" the tune is in intervallicly, you get the Roman Numeral relationship. Ebmaj7 is the IVmaj7 of Bb.

It's not hard. However, you should beware that tunes often move to different key centers, which can make Roman Numeral Analysis messy should you go that route. In doing so, you should look at what key centers a tune has and do the analysis that way to keep it simpler.

[fmoore200]

Thanks for the quick responses guys!

I get that Ebmaj is the IV of Bb... My question is more about the Ebmin.

If I transposed the tune to F major the Ebmaj7 turns into Bbmaj7 (the IV of F) but the Ebmin is non diatonic to Bb, and by extension the key of the tune itself, so what does the Ebmin6 become?

[Mushroo]

Unfortunately I don't know that particular tune. You'd have to look at the chords that follow. For example if the Ebmin is followed by Bb7 and AbMaj, then it is a ii-V-I progression modulating to Ab. (Or it could simply be a minor iv chord, which is not uncommon.)

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by fmoore200

Thanks for the quick responses guys!

I get that Ebmaj is the IV of Bb... My question is more about the Ebmin.

If I transposed the tune to F major the Ebmaj7 turns into Bbmaj7 (the IV of F) but the Ebmin is non diatonic to Bb, and by extension the key of the tune itself, so what does the Ebmin6 become?

When you transpose the intervallic relationships change - this has nothing to do with a diatonic scale.

If it's Bbmaj7 | Bbmin6 then transposing up a 5th gives you Fmaj7 | Fmin6. Get it? It's simple.

If I take a ii-V-i.... Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7 and transpose it up a 3rd
I get Em7 A7 Dmaj7
if I go up a 5th, it's Gm7 D7 Fmaj7

This has nothing to do with diatonic anything. Every single chord needs to be transposed up the same amount.

Ebmin6 up a 5th becomes Bbmin6

Transpose it yourself and PLAY the example. Does it sound right to you?

[Mushroo]

To answer your question with a question, if the chords are BbMaj/Bbmin in the original key, and EbMaj/____ in the transposed key, what possible chord other than Ebmin would you fill in the blank, and what is your thought process?

[fmoore200]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

When you transpose the intervallic relationships change - this has nothing to do with a diatonic scale.

If it's Bbmaj7 | Bbmin6 then transposing up a 5th gives you Fmaj7 | Fmin6. Get it? It's simple.

If I take a ii-V-i.... Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7 and transpose it up a 3rd
I get Em7 A7 Dmaj7
if I go up a 5th, it's Gm7 D7 Fmaj7

This has nothing to do with diatonic anything. Every single chord needs to be transposed up the same amount.

Ebmin6 up a 5th becomes Bbmin6

Transpose it yourself and PLAY the example. Does it sound right to you?

:banghead:

Wow. Sometimes I get caught over thinking.. Thanks for simplifying it for me. ..

[harryd714]

Three elements define a chord:

Position: The root note

Quality: The guide tones (3rd and seventh) which tells you maj 7th, minor 7th, dominant etc...

Colour: This is all the other tones that define the chord, your 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, b and #5ths etc...

So an Eb7#11 has
Position: Eb
Quality: Dominant (G and Db)
Colour: #11 (A natural)

The point being that the roman numeral only represents the Position of the chord in relation to the key. I was always taught not to use lower case roman numerals in Jazz analysis. So the Ebmaj7 is IVmaj7 and Ebmin6 is IVmin6 (by the way a min6 chord is an inversion of a half-diminished chord off of the 6th of the chord, so the C)

I think the roman numeral analysis is valuable for analyzing any tune as long as you point out when it modulates and write in relation to the new key.

but if you have a II-V where the positions are both in the key, but the progression itself is not, I wouldn't call it a modulation but instead just a sub-progression within the key, using secondary dominants.

i.e. If a tune in Eb has the II-V (Bb-7 Eb7) its better to analyze this as a secondary progression to IV (II/IV-V/IV) than to call it a II-V in the key of Ab.

This stuff all helped me a lot with analysis, which in turn makes transposition a lot easier.

[zfunkman]

Originally Posted by fmoore200

Thanks for the quick responses guys!

I get that Ebmaj is the IV of Bb... My question is more about the Ebmin.

If I transposed the tune to F major the Ebmaj7 turns into Bbmaj7 (the IV of F) but the Ebmin is non diatonic to Bb, and by extension the key of the tune itself, so what does the Ebmin6 become?

A Bbmin6. In the key of Bb, the Ebmin is a key change, then it changes back. It could also just be an "alternate chord" alternating a minor for a major. Key changes and alternating chords are common in modern jazz. Wayne Shorter really does this a lot; he puts many chords in songs that are not in the key the song is written. When I was in music school I tried to anyalyze El Gaucho by Wayne Shorter only to discover it was not written in any key because of the constant key changes.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by harryd714

Three elements define a chord:

Position: The root note

Quality: The guide tones (3rd and seventh) which tells you maj 7th, minor 7th, dominant etc...

Colour: This is all the other tones that define the chord, your 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, b and #5ths etc...

So an Eb7#11 has
Position: Eb
Quality: Dominant (G and Db)
Colour: #11 (A natural)

The point being that the roman numeral only represents the Position of the chord in relation to the key. I was always taught not to use lower case roman numerals in Jazz analysis. So the Ebmaj7 is IVmaj7 and Ebmin6 is IVmin6 (by the way a min6 chord is an inversion of a half-diminished chord off of the 6th of the chord, so the C)

I think the roman numeral analysis is valuable for analyzing any tune as long as you point out when it modulates and write in relation to the new key.

but if you have a II-V where the positions are both in the key, but the progression itself is not, I wouldn't call it a modulation but instead just a sub-progression within the key, using secondary dominants.

i.e. If a tune in Eb has the II-V (Bb-7 Eb7) its better to analyze this as a secondary progression to IV (II/IV-V/IV) than to call it a II-V in the key of Ab.

This stuff all helped me a lot with analysis, which in turn makes transposition a lot easier.

What you wrote is good info and advice - if you understand it. What he was asking for was quite simple and IMO, better not to over-complicate things. It's just a simple key change - nothing more.

Roman numeral analysis is great but can also be confusing if you haven't done it alot, and over more complicated tunes. For the OP, it's something he can discover later. Once he transposes a set of changes over several keys, he'll find that the Roman Numeral analysis comes a lot more naturally.

[Ewo]

Originally Posted by fmoore200

:banghead:

Wow. Sometimes I get caught over thinking.. Thanks for simplifying it for me. ..

Yeah, maybe it just seemed more complicated than it is!

Here's another cut at it:

Pick any tune, in the key of F--minor or major as the case may be. If you wanted to transpose it up a halfstep, to F# (minor or major), you wouldn't bat an eye, yeah? Up one fret on every chord; the quality of every chord would remain the same; the scale associated with the key center would just be up one fret.

The same logic applies, no matter where you're transposing the song to.

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

This has nothing to do with diatonic anything. Every single chord needs to be transposed up the same amount.

This. Not much theory is required to transpose something up a major 5th. (Or down a major 4th, depending on how you want to think about it.)

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by fmoore200

So I've been expanding my rep (the meager rep that it is ) and was wondering how to play it through the cycle of 5ths.

I think I get how to transpose the melody, but what about the chord progression? Specifically the non diatonic chords?

For example, the tune "after you've gone" in the key of Bb. The first chord is Ebmaj7, but the second chord is Ebmin6... What do I do with that when going from Bb major to, say, F major?

Thanks

Here's a free resource that will help you:

http://www.jazzstudies.us/

[fraublugher]

Search Composite minor and like function substitution .

[Ant_C]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

This. Not much theory is required to transpose something up a major 5th. (Or down a major 4th, depending on how you want to think about it.)

I don't want to sound like a pretentious jerk when I say this, but there is no such thing as a major 4th or major 5th. In Music Theory (or just music in general) they are referred to as Perfect 4th and a Perfect 5th.

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by Ant_C

I don't want to sound like a pretentious jerk when I say this, but there is no such thing as a major 4th or major 5th. In Music Theory (or just music in general) they are referred to as Perfect 4th and a Perfect 5th.

You are correct, but you do sound like a jerk.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

You are correct, but you do sound like a jerk.

No, if he didn't include the words "you ****ing moron" or suggest that you were only fit to be sold to wealthy Chinese as a pet, he does not sound like a jerk.

[fmoore200]

Thanks for all the responses guys! I did play through the tune while "raising" the chords a 5th in my head and you guys were right.