The problem with Dorian

[dar512]

At the risk of advertising just how slow I am, I thought I'd share something that might help other newbies pursuing jazz.

I had a revelation last week. (You're going to laugh)

Dorian is just Mixolydian except the third is minor.

Yes. I know. You're thinking "how long have you been at this instrument, dar?" And it's true. I've been handed that fact a number of times in the past. I guess I just wasn't ready to use it.

I've been pretty solid with my major scales for some time. And Mixo is fairly easy to find because the root and octave are obvious. So leaving a whole step at the end (or beginning) instead of a half step is not so hard. Dorian has taken a bit longer, though.

It helps somewhat to think of, say, D Dorian as being the C scale but starting on D -- until you put a bunch more flats or sharps in there. My progress was fairly glacial.

In the meantime, my teacher has given me the task of learning the major, minor, and mixo 7th arpeggios -- ii, V, I around the circle of fourths.

I think that's what turned the light bulb on. Until you get to a certain stage, it seems like a long road from root to octave. Practicing the arpeggios for those three modes gave me mental reference points. Then I was able to see the path of the Dorian scale because I already had the reference points to hand.

I'm sure this all seems very trivial if you're already past this stage in your playing. But it was quite a rush for me. This little flash was last week and I'm still buzzed.

[Dave Speranza]

It gets better. Just wait. You'll finally get all that stuff down cold, and then you'll find a teacher that tells you - "dorian-mixolydian-ionian is the most boring thing you could play over a ii-V-I!"

[Co.]

Maybe it's easyier to look at Dorian more like: Minor with a natural 6. That reflects the way it sounds, not only the fingering, so it is easier to recall. Most modes can be expressed the way major/minor with one or two tones different.

[neurotictim]

I still need to catch up with a lot of the theoretical side of music, but I understand your revelatory feeling - same as me when I realized I was unintentionally naming the notes out on the songs I was playing with the band... At practice!

[bassolf]

D dorian is the same scale as the C major scale. Just play C major from D to D. You can use the same fingering to! G mixolydian is also the same scale as C major only from G to G.
Learn your major scales good and this will be no problem.

[Co.]

Of course the notes of C ion, D dor and G mixo are the same and you can use whatever fingering you want, but when someone calls "So What?", do think D dorian or do you think C major?

You should always relate the fingering to the sound you hear.

D dorian and C major is not the same, even if the notes are the same and you use the same fingering. When you the same fingering for all modes, you might end up playing the same ideas over all modes. The goal should be to understand what is happening. When you understand how the modes work and how their intervals translate to the fingerboard, you won't need to think about fingerings anymore.

[dar512]

That's exactly the problem I was running into Co. As I said in my initial post, I understand the relationship between c major and d dorian. But that didn't help much to get dorian under my fingers.

I found it much easier to "see" Db dorian scale (for example) as a modification to Db mixo than I did seeing it as B major starting on Db. YMMV

However the main point I wanted to make was that getting the various 7th arpeggios under my fingers really helped in getting the scales in place.

[Ben Rolston]

Originally Posted by dar512

That's exactly the problem I was running into Co. As I said in my initial post, I understand the relationship between c major and d dorian. But that didn't help much to get dorian under my fingers.

I found it much easier to "see" Db dorian scale (for example) as a modification to Db mixo than I did seeing it as B major starting on Db. YMMV

However the main point I wanted to make was that getting the various 7th arpeggios under my fingers really helped in getting the scales in place.

Be careful of mixing sharps and flats, it will hurt you later.

B=5 sharps, with c# not db

[hdiddy]

I once wrote out a chart that shows the various differences between the different scales. Fun little exercise but it wasn't all that useful. It was just good to write it out so I could see the differences in the alterations.

In my less educated opinion, modal playing gets stale really quick. It's better to take things note by note and examine why you are putting a flat where you are and what the purpose of it is. It's a learning tool but I haven't found much use for it. I get more mileage by looking at a chord progression from a chart and identifying right away where it's resolving to. Sharps/flats are added to color the sound the way I want or part of the phrasing.

[buddyro57]

Don't feel bad, you keep getting those little revelations throughout your career- even when you get old. Like this one that has ocurred to most folks, but I was slow on the uptake about this:

Harmonic minor evolved through the addition of a leading-tone to Aeolian;
this produces an aug 2nd between scale degrees b6 & nat.7 (which is a little awkward for singers and choral groups (or at least this was the notion in the baroque).
Melodic minor (ascending only) repairs the aug 2nd ( nat 6 & nat 7)....so far so good.
My little revelation was:

Harmonic Minor = Aeolian with LT
Melodic Minor = Dorian with LT

OK, not earth-shattering, but a little easier way to remember 2 minor modes and their variants.
well...I thought it was good...
JS

[grieverOSOK]

and the modes begin to reveal their secrets haha

[David Moss]

Originally Posted by dar512

That's exactly the problem I was running into Co. As I said in my initial post, I understand the relationship between c major and d dorian. But that didn't help much to get dorian under my fingers.

I found it much easier to "see" Db dorian scale (for example) as a modification to Db mixo than I did seeing it as B major starting on Db. YMMV

IMHO, the hint to play dorian as the second mode of a major scale - i.e., the assumption that this hint is going to make life easier for the student - goes with the assumption that you've already practiced your major scales until you're blue in the face. That means, it's assumed that you've got the major scale fingerings under your fingers to the extent that you can start anywhere in the scale and go in either direction, fluently and correctly, in all 12 keys, preferably in your sleep. Once you've reached that point, then it really does help to think of C# major starting on Db, etc. But if you're still fumbling a little to find the notes of C# major, or if you've been practicising the scales starting at the root only, then I agree that it doesn't really help to think that way at this time.

The disadvantage of your approach is that you're going to figure out an efficient fingering for D dorian, for G mixolydian, etc., and in each case you'll find the answer is the same, i.e. C major fingering. So by the time you're finished you've learned the same fingering 7 times. It's more efficient to learn that fingering just once, and then learn the things you can do with it.

I agree with Co. that you need to watch out for the danger that grabbing a C major fingering will cause you to play C major ideas instead of D dorian ideas. To avoid that, you need to practice getting D dorian ideas out of the C maj scale. A few exercise suggestions:

1. Play the C maj scale in quarter notes with a strong emphasis on 2 and 4, one time from C to C and the next time from D to D. You should hear that it's a different sound
2. Practice playing Dm7, G7 and Cmaj7 arpeggios, all out of the same C maj fingering. Then try making melodies out of those tones over a ii-V-I in C, still using the C maj fingering.
3. When you've got that down, try it over Autumn Leaves: make a walking bass line by playing out the arpeggio of each chord Dm7 G7 CMaj7 FMaj7 Bm7b5 E7 Am7, keeping to the C maj fingering throughout the whole thing.
4. Or, if you're that kind of learner, just improvise using C maj fingering while listening closely to a Dm7 chord, and learn by hearing what sounds good and what doesn't. Pay special attention to where your lines finish - if you're careful to target a Dm chord tone to land on, your lines will still sound like Dm even if you accidentally visited some other places on the way.