a question for teachers...

[MingusAmongUs]

This is another one of those topics with no proper place, so here's as good as any I guess.

I have a DB student with a double-jointed left thumb, if that's the right way of describing it. When she's playing, I notice that sometimes her left thumb is bent backwards at an outrageous angle. I know this is affecting the reach of her fingers and who knows what else.

So the question is: how do I address this? I have told her to be aware of it and try not to let it bend backwards but obviously this is not something the rest of us have to think about at all, and I can't really guess how hard it is to avoid. Just wondering if anyone has dealt with this issue, or anything similar. Either way, I'd be curious to know how you'd handle it.

Thanks.

[downneck]

it's very important for people with hypermobility to do regular exercise and PT to keep the muscles surrounding the joints strong which will lessen the effects of their hypermobility. i'd suggest sending her to a good physical therapist who will be able to work out an exercise routine

[jisbass]

I'm not a teacher, but I have that thumb, and had that problem.

The bottom line is, she has to learn not to squeeze w/ her left hand, but rather use the weight of her arm to stop the notes.

How she will get there is a combination of a lot of things.
You have to help her find the right stance (bass height, angle, feet position, etc) that allows her to have proper hand and arm position.
For example, the commonly used stance of "the nut at eye brow level and right bottom of bass touching the left knee" doesn't work for every one. This stance is the worst for me. Makes my thumb hyper extend like crazy, along w/ other problems.
The combination of, and the relationship between her bass and her body is unique, so you have to help her find the stance that best works for her.

What helped me overcome it:
I practiced sitting for a while, to learn what it feels like to not use the thumb to squeeze.

experimented with stances with different bass height, angle, etc, until I found the position that allowed me to use the weight of my arm in a relaxed way.

I did exercises on the D and G strings with my thumb bent towards the palm, with the tip of the thumb touching the neck, to train my thumb to not bend backwards. This is easier to do higher up the neck, like 3rd or 4th Simandl position. Some people play like this all the time, which I don't like to do, but it helped to do it temporarily.

Another thing to think about is, the thumb tended to hyper-extend more when I played on the E and A strings. This happened because I reached for the E and A strings w/ my hand and fingers rather than my whole arm.

There are other factors,like the arm, elbow, etc. etc.
Ultimately, she has to become self-aware and figure it out for her self (with your guidance), because she's alone most of the time she practices, and she knows her body the best.
The teacher's job is to make sure the student knows what the correct hand/arm position is.

For people like us who have this thumb, I think it's ok for the thumb to be bent slightly backwards from time to time, as long as we're not squeezing and the technique is correct. It's that when it is exaggerated, it's an indication of poor technique, and could cause damage in the long run.

All this is based on my experience only, and an experienced teacher might have better insight.

[thombo]

Originally Posted by jisbass

I'm not a teacher, but I have that thumb, and had that problem.

The bottom line is, she has to learn not to squeeze w/ her left hand, but rather use the weight of her arm to stop the notes.

How she will get there is a combination of a lot of things.
You have to help her find the right stance (bass height, angle, feet position, etc) that allows her to have proper hand and arm position.
For example, the commonly used stance of "the nut at eye brow level and right bottom of bass touching the left knee" doesn't work for every one. This stance is the worst for me. Makes my thumb hyper extend like crazy, along w/ other problems.
The combination of, and the relationship between her bass and her body is unique, so you have to help her find the stance that best works for her.

What helped me overcome it:
I practiced sitting for a while, to learn what it feels like to not use the thumb to squeeze.

experimented with stances with different bass height, angle, etc, until I found the position that allowed me to use the weight of my arm in a relaxed way.

I did exercises on the D and G strings with my thumb bent towards the palm, with the tip of the thumb touching the neck, to train my thumb to not bend backwards. This is easier to do higher up the neck, like 3rd or 4th Simandl position. Some people play like this all the time, which I don't like to do, but it helped to do it temporarily.

Another thing to think about is, the thumb tended to hyper-extend more when I played on the E and A strings. This happened because I reached for the E and A strings w/ my hand and fingers rather than my whole arm.

There are other factors,like the arm, elbow, etc. etc.
Ultimately, she has to become self-aware and figure it out for her self (with your guidance), because she's alone most of the time she practices, and she knows her body the best.
The teacher's job is to make sure the student knows what the correct hand/arm position is.

This is based on my experience only, and an experienced teacher might have better insight.

i also have a double-jointed left thumb. it affected me on the D and G stings though, not the A and E. i tended to hyper-extend when i grew tired, which meant that i had to take a rest.

jisbass's comment about the use of arm weight it crucial.

i have also adapted my playing slightly (naturally, not intentionally): i intuitively role my thumb so that my nail stays at about a 45 degree angle so that there isn't any pressure on the joint. this "locks" the joint. my touch w/ my left hand is very light also. as far as i can tell, after 10 years of playing, not a single problem.

gary peacock's bass video has some great tips on bass posture and minimizing body/hand tension. he doesn't address this, but i found it useful.

[MingusAmongUs]

Thanks for the insight all. Very helpful. I figured pretty much the same things with regard to minimizing hand/finger tension in favor of arm weight (which holds true for everybody I think). The rolling of the thumb is something I hadn't considered. But this is real tricky because she is just starting out and there is a lot of work to do to get her playing in tune, particularly on the 4th finger, and the only thing that has helped so far is adding pressure in that left hand.

Keep 'em comin'.