Ray Brown's Bass Method

ricobasso · #1 03-07-2007, 06:35 AM

Bought this book recently and it's OK-ish but I'm getting more and more annoyed that very few fingerings are shown

. There's also no clear guidlines on where to change to thumb position.

Am I being unreasonable? Maybe the point is that I'm supposed to struggle in finding fingerings that work and learn that way??? I could do that without any book at all!

Any thoughts out there?

msw · #2 03-07-2007, 08:00 AM

I think that this book is great. You are right, the idea is that he shows you the fingerings for the first scale and then based on that you figure out the others. This insures that by investing the time and thought you will "own" the fingerings that you devise. A teacher can also help. Later in the book there are some great basslines for blues as well as diminished,diatonic and wholetone licks that are classic bass vocabulary. Not to mention the triad and arpeggio studies. If you put in some time with this book it will definately take you to another level.

Martin Sheridan · #3 03-07-2007, 09:54 AM

Richard Davis told me that he also believes in making your own fingerings. I knew a guy who was a friend of Ray's when he was young and he said he took lessons from the principal of the Pittsburg Symphony and learned from the Simandl book.

I recently got a copy and am looking forward to working with it.

As far as I'm concerned Ray Brown "wrote the book" on jazz bass.

musicman5string · #4 03-07-2007, 10:03 AM

As far as I know, most written music is not going to give you written fingering for everything. It's not too hard to spend the time to figure it out.
When I picked up the upright, before I had a teacher, I would spend hours and hours with that book. I consider Ray Brown my first teacher.

Dbassmon · #5 03-07-2007, 10:09 AM

A knowledgable teacher is always a good thing. Not that you can not come a reasonable answer to the fingering question on your own, you can, a teacher just shortens the learning curve. That my two cents worth.

ricobasso · #6 03-16-2007, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msw

You are right, the idea is that he shows you the fingerings for the first scale and then based on that you figure out the others.

That might be OK if it followed through, but, he doesn't always give you the fingerings for the 1st scale (or any). In the case of the diminished scales you get some of the later scales but not the first page

Why? Besides, you don't teach someone electronics by handing them a book full of schematics

I would like to have a teacher but as an amateur with a family and day job, I have very little time and last time I looked around this area I could only find a classical bass teacher.

jallenbass · #7 03-16-2007, 07:39 AM

A classical teacher could certainly help you with fingerings. One lesson could work that out.

Jason Hollar · #8 03-16-2007, 07:51 AM

The Ray Brown (lower) positions are based off Simandl so try that book/method as well. Simandl is the "bible" of basic fingerings.

The "extended" fingerings in the middle of the bass are like "electric" bass fingerings...one finger per "fret".

The thumb position stuff is also marked in such a way as to get you started...but as the other fine players here have noted, it might be best to work with someone who can show you the ropes based on this book. The Rufus Reid and Michael Moore books are excellent resources.

I've owned this book for years, and every time I come back to it I learn something new. That is probably why it confuses you...it's got some deep concepts disguised as "simple" exercises.

Also, it really helps to listen to a ton of Ray Brown while enjoying his method book. As you begin to hear what he's doing, the book will start to make more sense.

This all came together for me about 6 years ago when I saw the Ray Brown Trio live. Everything I was working toward was RIGHT THERE and it was frickin' amazing! Good luck.

msw · #9 03-16-2007, 01:33 PM

With no intention of sounding smug...........where there is a will there is a way. I've been told by a few people that knew Ray that it was his intention not to spoon-feed the student, that he held the opinion that reasoning out the problems for one's self was invaluable. Everyone one who has responded to this thread has come up with some great ideas and observations for all of us to consider.
I really agree that this book never seems to stop being a incredible source of information. In my case I didn't choose to study Ray Brown, I couldn't RESIST it! There has been much discussion about the value of teachers. One lesson with a good teacher can last a lifetime. Regular lessons??? Even better.
I had a friend who took a lesson with Ray. Ray asked him to play a tune and Ray sang the melody and listened to this guy play time. The song was "Falling in Love With Love" in Bb. My friend absolutely played the daylights out of it using many of Ray's licks with good time and a good sound. Ray sincerely congratulated him on how good he sounded. Then he said in total seriousness "now play it in E" my friend was reduced to just making the changes without fills and even with a few transposition errors which effected the secureness of his time. Ray, in a good-natured way said "you chicken#### **** mother%*()*(^$#" He went on to tell the guy how important fluidity is in all keys and how he had worked on that a lot when he was with Oscar Peterson and how much it had payed off in the studios later on. My friend went right home and with a vengeance became a wizard at playing everything he could think of in all 12 keys.

Alan Vorse · #10 03-16-2007, 02:56 PM

I took a lesson with a guy that studied with Ray Brown. At one of the first lessons, Ray asked him to play a two octave scale. My teacher played it at a moderate tempo. Ray looked at him, and shouted "That's all? Play it like you mean it. Play that scale!" Even better. My teacher was soloing, and Ray would stop him occasionally to ask "OK, why are you playing that note?" You can only say it's a passing tone so many times.

musicman5string · #11 03-16-2007, 04:25 PM

These are great stories.

I remember a clinic with Ray once where he had a guy come up and play his bass. The guy played "Embraceble You" in G. Played it well. Then Ray said "Great, now do it in Bb" and the guy crashed and burned. Then Ray took the bass and said "What key?" I think D was called. Ray naturally played the hell out of it.
He really was one of a kind in terms of his sound too. I love that sound so much, I could listen to that warm, clear tone with that great little click at the begginning of every note all day.
When I took some lessons with Dave Holland, he mentioned Ray Brown constantly; how great his book was, how he learned every note he could hear Ray playing, how Ray was even then still his idol.
I met Ray once at the Blue Note and got his autograph. Charnett Moffett came up right after me and was scheduling some lessons with Ray. I should've asked for some too.

damonsmith · #12 03-16-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricobasso

That might be OK if it followed through, but, he doesn't always give you the fingerings for the 1st scale (or any). In the case of the diminished scales you get some of the later scales but not the first page

Why? Besides, you don't teach someone electronics by handing them a book full of schematics

I would like to have a teacher but as an amateur with a family and day job, I have very little time and last time I looked around this area I could only find a classical bass teacher.

- I know Ray was really into Simandl, and I seriously doubt his method was meant to replace it. So I'd start there. Ditto for Paul Chambers.

ethnotime · #13 03-16-2007, 05:15 PM

Man, if you want fingerings for scales, get the Rabbath book. I have volume 3 and he lists basic to advanced fingerings for scales (i.e. using only E and A strings, 1 string only) and introduces some different thumb positions (like at the "7th" fret). It gets a bit over-the-top technical and gets boring if you work at it everyday but it's useful and practical if studied over a long period of time. The Simandl book is good too but the Rabbath offers more playing possibilities.

Good luck.

damonsmith · #14 03-16-2007, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ethnotime

Man, if you want fingerings for scales, get the Rabbath book. I have volume 3 and he lists basic to advanced fingerings for scales (i.e. using only E and A strings, 1 string only) and introduces some different thumb positions (like at the "7th" fret). It gets a bit over-the-top technical and gets boring if you work at it everyday but it's useful and practical if studied over a long period of time. The Simandl book is good too but the Rabbath offers more playing possibilities.

Good luck.

-Most of what is different about Rabbath's fingerings do not work at all for a big unamplified pizz sound like Ray Brown, unless you really want tendonitis. Most of the "Jazz" bass playing everyone loves is made by guys who studied Simandl. You can chase your own tail, or get that book out of the way. It is not tough.
Conversely, If you really want to understand Rabbath you would need to look at the Nanny method in conjunction with his, since that is what he studied.

I actually saw those to play together opposite sets then a duo at the end, in San Francisco years ago..

ricobasso · #15 03-19-2007, 11:01 AM

Thanks for all the replies.
I do have Simandl and I even had 6 or 8 lessons from that book when I was at college (thirty+ years ago). It sounds like I should go back to that for a refresher and maybe go to that classical teacher to get me out of this rut.

MatthewS · #16 03-23-2007, 04:46 PM

This book I thought was truely great.
What an honor to have a lesson with him.

pnchad · #17 03-23-2007, 08:22 PM

from Ray's book, time from Ray's book, arpeggios from that book, raking from it and THE blues.

That was 30 years ago. Ray's still the best - never a wasted note, no pyrotechniques for show. I miss him.

From the Miles school, "you don't need to play ALL the notes, just the pretty ones".

Jason Hollar · #18 03-30-2007, 07:56 AM

Ethnotime,

Yeah, I have to just add my cautionary 2 cents about the Rabbath method.

I took a lesson off a guy here who was a student of Rabbath. His technique and concepts were unreal. He could reach for notes and play passages I could only dream of playing. I agree, for solo style, the Rabbath method has clear advantages.

However, when I tried his bass...it played more like a cello!

It had the lightest Correlli strings, set way low, and he had one of thsoe "classical" egg pin, end pins, so the bass stood up and leaned forward -- for better bowing.

When he checked out my bass, with comparatively heavier Obligatos and a medium action, he said, "you get a great tone with this set up...better stick with what's working!"

So anyway, since I dig Ray Brown, Milt Hinton, Paul Chambers, etc., I follow in their foot steps...and the fingerings those guys mainly used were based on Simandl. I'm going for big sound, and not a very flashy style, meat & potatoes lines as it were...

Works for me!

damonsmith · #19 04-12-2007, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Hollar

Ethnotime,

Yeah, I have to just add my cautionary 2 cents about the Rabbath method.

I took a lesson off a guy here who was a student of Rabbath. His technique and concepts were unreal. He could reach for notes and play passages I could only dream of playing. I agree, for solo style, the Rabbath method has clear advantages.

However, when I tried his bass...it played more like a cello!

It had the lightest Correlli strings, set way low, and he had one of thsoe "classical" egg pin, end pins, so the bass stood up and leaned forward -- for better bowing.

When he checked out my bass, with comparatively heavier Obligatos and a medium action, he said, "you get a great tone with this set up...better stick with what's working!"

So anyway, since I dig Ray Brown, Milt Hinton, Paul Chambers, etc., I follow in their foot steps...and the fingerings those guys mainly used were based on Simandl. I'm going for big sound, and not a very flashy style, meat & potatoes lines as it were...

Works for me!

-Agreed. Theoretically I want both, and you are just not going to get the big, Meaty sound with low action and thin strings, so my set-up is more like yours but with Spiros. I like Rabbath and have some of his books.
As always my advice is to start with Simandl and then check out everyhting.

CamMcIntyre · #20 05-18-2007, 02:26 AM

I've got the Ray Brown book too. I realized his greatness after he died-i didn't really start to dig into DB playing until last year in school [freshman year/fall of 2005].

If you want a book that has more of the fingerings written in-check out the Michael Moore Bass Method or i think in Rufus Reid's Evolving Bassist there's more fingerings written in.

As far as what i have learned from Ray's recordings...where should we start? Ok-sound. I have based a lot of my sound off how how he sounds. The big, wooly, warmth with attack. I like to refer to it as a bass drum with pitch. Making lines deceptively simple-if i can ever do this to 1/10th of how he did-i will work 7 nights a week. I don't think i have time to list everything else.