Right hand pizz

violinoscar · #1 12-04-2006, 03:53 PM

I usually pizz with my index finger, and if for instance I am plucking an A D or G string, generally I do not come to rest on the string below. (Classical guitarists call this a rest stroke, I believe). Anyway, I recently saw an instructional video on you-tube where the guy was advocating the finger coming to rest on the lower string with a thump, after having struck the string above. This gives a very percussive sound to my ear. Maybe I am just not used to it. I have 2 questions relating to this;
Is this the generally accepted practise, and is this the thunk-thunk sound that I often hear on records (Ray Brown especially), that sounds something like a drummer tapping a block in unison with the bass?
Thanks Guys

#2 12-09-2006, 09:45 AM

I think most people would definatley let their finger come to rest on the string below. Check out some youtube of dave holland, ray brown....etc. However I think most would also agree you want to hear the note you play, and not any 'misc' sounds after the note has been played. Hope that helps.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #3 12-09-2006, 10:30 AM

The way I learned it and the way I teach it is that your RH finger touches down on the fingerboard before plucking the string, and follows through on the fingerboard until the finger stops on the next string. This does two things:

1) Keeps the angle of the string vibration consistent from string to string, since each string will be vibrating in a certain relation to the curvature of the fingerboard;

2) Helps mitigate the "afterthump" of the next string being hit, since the downward pressure on the finger slows the RH finger down.

goodgig · #4 10-05-2008, 05:34 PM

Chris, I was searching TB and came across this post. I have been plucking the strings more parallel with the finger board. The technique that you stated (touching down on the FB before plucking) gets much more sound out of the bass. My low G on the E string has been getting a nasty buzz, even after I had the fingerboard dressed. I see that if I experiment on that string I'll be able to get that nice spirocore growl without the buzzing noise that up until now has been driving me nuts!

Thanks

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #5 10-05-2008, 08:24 PM

Glad you found it useful. On the E, if you try to keep the arc of the stroke the same as on the other strings, you'll have to figure out what to do with the hand when there's nothing to stop the plucking finger. I have several motions for this depending on the tempo and articulation, but I like to pluck the E with the same arc because of the sound.

nathanmcnathan · #6 10-06-2008, 03:22 PM

What video was this? was it from expertvillage?

hdiddy · #7 10-06-2008, 03:29 PM

Was that a joke?

I think the key is that regardless of how you come to rest after the note, that you pull through the string and not just pluck it. By going "through" the string, your finger should automatically and freely come to rest on the string below. I don't think you want a percussive sound when it comes to rest as that may be unwanted noise. My bet was that the microphone picked up the noise but it's more of a "bug" than a "feature".

Will Yager · #8 10-06-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanmcnathan

What video was this? was it from expertvillage?

Hehe I hope not

Paul Warburton · #9 10-06-2008, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdiddy

Was that a joke?

I think the key is that regardless of how you come to rest after the note, that you pull through the string and not just pluck it. By going "through" the string, your finger should automatically and freely come to rest on the string below. I don't think you want a percussive sound when it comes to rest as that may be unwanted noise. My bet was that the microphone picked up the noise but it's more of a "bug" than a "feature".

#1...What diddy is saying, I think, is that you are squeezing the note out more than plucking it out. In your mind, draw an imaginary arrow pointing to the string and landing on the finger board. Your finger makes a kind of popping, percussive sound as it hits the board. This kinda acts like a ' period '.
This by far, for me, is the best way to get the maximum sound out of the bass. After you get this down with one finger, try moving on, with the same concept with two or however many fingers you want.....
I meant to mention that I ran across a Ron Carter book that made this " arrow " stuff pretty clear in an illustration.
I didn't wanna be accussed of stealing his ****. Actually, I think, diddy's expaination of " going through the string " is far more clear than what either of Ron's or my remarks were.

bolo · #10 10-07-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by violinoscar

I usually pizz with my index finger, and if for instance I am plucking an A D or G string, generally I do not come to rest on the string below. (Classical guitarists call this a rest stroke, I believe). Anyway, I recently saw an instructional video on you-tube where the guy was advocating the finger coming to rest on the lower string with a thump, after having struck the string above. This gives a very percussive sound to my ear. Maybe I am just not used to it. I have 2 questions relating to this;
Is this the generally accepted practise, and is this the thunk-thunk sound that I often hear on records (Ray Brown especially), that sounds something like a drummer tapping a block in unison with the bass?
Thanks Guys

I really like many of the posts in this thread too. Good stuff. Thanks.

I have seen the youtube clips you mentioned. No, it is not the expert village thing (which I have not watched). Is it from bassius? I am drawing that screen name from memory.

Anyway I think when your DB is amplified w/ a piezo pickup, this thunk can get over-emphasized. So can other percussive sounds like skips and pulloffs. Depends on the pickup. At least that's my experience.

But I have been listening (again) to Duke Ellington and Ray Brown on This One's For Blanton. Superb stuff. No pickup there. And I clearly here the thunk in certain sections. And I hear it when I play. I always thought it was as you said the finger coming to rest on the next lowest string, not the finger hitting the FB. I think I will have to experiment some for myself at home and at a rehearsal tonight and see.

Aaron Cohn · #11 10-07-2008, 05:54 PM

I think a lot of this depends on string type and height. If you're playing a bass with gut strings set up really high off the fingerboard, it's probably not going to be practical to pull your finger along the fingerboard. I've played some basses with strings high enough that if I tried to feel the fingerboard between notes at all I was certain to get stuck on those soft gut strings.

This thread made me check what I do. I play on somewhat gut-like strings with moderately high action. I found that I don't touch the fingerboard before plucking the string. After plucking the string, my finger sometimes barely brushes the fingerboard, sometimes doesn't, before coming to a rest on the next string. I just went and tried what Chris suggests. With my hands on my bass with my setup, I got a loud but brash and harsh tone. Too much finger involved with the string at my string height. The angle of the plucking finger is another variable to consider. I tried using more of the tip of the finger as opposed to the side and found that I tended to touch the fingerboard more this way. I don't mean to call Chris's advice into question--it's probably great advice for most. Just thought I'd bring up some other considerations.

I also experimented with checking out the sound my finger makes as it hits the next string. As I play, it seems like this is part of the sound, but everything happens so fast as I pluck a string that it can be hard to tell what exactly creates different parts of the sound. I tried two things:

First, I tried to simulate my finger coming to rest on, say, the D string, but without actually plucking the G string. Unless I did this with enough force to slap the lower strings into the fingerboard, it didn't make very much of a sound. I didn't trust this experiment too much, though, since it's difficult to mimic the force with which a finger comes off the string without actually plucking the string.

Second, I bunched my sweat-rag around my D string in the plucking area. Then I played on my G string to see whether all of the cushioning on the D affected the sound. As far as I could tell, I got as much percussive "thunk" with my finger hitting bunched-up cotton as I did with my finger hitting naked string.

I don't doubt that some players get a sound out of hitting the next string and/or the fingerboard. But I think that releasing a well-pulled string creates a percussive sound that we may sometimes perceive to come from somewhere else, especially since as far as we can tell it coincides with the finger coming to rest on the next string.

Any thoughts?

Aaron Cohn · #12 10-07-2008, 06:00 PM

One more experiment: I just tried snapping my finger off of my thumb and having it come to rest on a string. This did make a significant sound and may be a good simulation of what happens as the finger comes off a string. So maybe the finger coming to rest makes more of a sound than I thought.

hdiddy · #13 10-07-2008, 06:14 PM

Aaron, your descriptions just get increasingly confusing.

Paul Warburton · #14 10-07-2008, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Cohn

One more experiment: I just tried snapping my finger off of my thumb.

That musta hurt like a Mother ****er!

Uncletoad · #15 10-07-2008, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Cohn

One more experiment: I just tried snapping my finger off of my thumb and having it come to rest on a string. This did make a significant sound and may be a good simulation of what happens as the finger comes off

How many times can you do that? I've only got 8 non thumb fingers, after that, I'm pretty much out.

Uncletoad · #16 10-07-2008, 07:24 PM

I have always had an idea of what sound I wanted and let my hands find it. It's an arm thing for me. I can't figure out how to get that sound out of a finger without the arm and back behind it.

jweiss · #17 10-07-2008, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolo

I have seen the youtube clips you mentioned. No, it is not the expert village thing (which I have not watched). Is it from bassius? I am drawing that screen name from memory.

bassius = denson angulo, my teacher

Maybe one of the videos on his youtube site?

http://www.youtube.com/densonangulo

bolo · #18 10-08-2008, 07:50 AM

In my case I think I agree a lot w/ Aaron's observations. I tried this last night too. And my action is too high to do what Chris suggested without it being very deliberate and awkward (at least for now).

In my case I think the thunk that I get when I pluck is not landing on the next lowest string, or my finger hitting the FB. Try as I might, like Aaron said, I cannot get much sound at all landing on the next lowest string like bassius demos in his video. I think in my case what I am hearing is the pop from letting go of the string I am plucking.

There is a great, great article in the April '07 issue of BP where Bob Moore mentions this, and says:

"Part of my sound comes from my strength of pulling the string; when I turn loose of the string, it has an attack that's not necessarily the string making the noise - it's my finger releasing the string, a little pop to start the note."
I could be wrong, but I think this may also be what I'm hearing in that Duke Ellington / Ray Brown duo CD I mentioned earlier.

All that said, I am going to experiment more with what Chris and Paul have suggested here. I may have to lower my action. But the little work I've done so far seems to make a HUGE difference in the amount of volume I can pull out of the string. Haven't decided like Aaron said if it's uglier or just plainer louder.

So thanks for that. Great thread. I nominate it for a permanent stickie in the newbies links.

hdiddy · #19 10-08-2008, 11:19 AM

FWIW my strings tend to be on the lower end of string heights. When I pull the string, I come to rest more on the FB than the next string, but not with enough force to make a noise. This coincides with what Paul is talking about. I go through the strings like an arrow and play INTO the fingerboard.

When I used to have higher strings I think it was still the same. I never pull parallel to the fingerboard. I pull into it. I think it has to do with economy of motion as well. Resting on the fingerboard makes it less travel to the next string, including the same one. The next string also flexes too so I may have to travel an extra milimeter (which is enough to **** you up at fast tempos). If I pull to the next string, I may have to travel the full string spacing to get back. Pulling into the FB I only have to go halfway of the string spacing.

EDIT: Here's a good experiment for you to tell what I'm talking about. One of the exercises my teacher first gave me was a simple 16th note drill. Get a metronome and put it at 60 BPM. Play it with the clicks on the 2&4 and play 16th notes on a single string (you're actually playing at 120bpm). Open strings, fingered strings, muted, whatever. Try them all. This is a drill for alternating fingerstyle (2 or more). Each note must ring out even as the next. So the index finger pulls must sound the same as if it was done with the middle finger and vice versa. Keep this up for 5 straight minutes. For experimentation purposes, just do a minute or two. Easier said than done. Once you have down comfortably... up the temp two clicks (or about 8bpm)

Try it and see for yourself which is better: Pulling through the string into the fingerboard or pulling through into the adjacent string. For me, sometimes I barely put any weight on the next string and rest more on the FB. I think this will also tie in with what Aaron's talking about with hand angles. Pulling into the fingerboard will employ a different angle. Also note the tone you get. For me, pulling into the FB results in a more focused sound.

EDIT #2: I think there's also one more thing to note. Pulling into the FB I think requires more using the whole arm. Chicken wing style ala Rufus Reid. I don't think you can do it with just mere fingers. As the tempo picks up, I'll use the arms more and try to relax the fingers as much as possible - trying to get to the most relaxed state when things are going way too fast.

Paul Warburton · #20 10-08-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdiddy

When I pull the string, I come to rest more on the FB than the next string, but not with enough force to make a noise. This coincides with what Paul is talking about. I go through the strings like an arrow and play INTO the fingerboard.

Pulling into the fingerboard will employ a different angle. Also note the tone you get. For me, pulling into the FB results in a more focused sound.

Couldn't have said it better my own self.
I have though, heard certain Ray and Red stuff where you CAN hear thier fingers kind of pop on the board after you hear the note. I find this rather attractive.