The Ring Finger

porteous · #1 05-22-2006, 03:52 PM

I'd sure this has been covered here before, but....

I acquired an EUB (Knutson Messenger) after playing BG for many years. First thing I did was get a teacher, who like most teachers, started me with the Simandl book. Right from the start, the 1-2-4 business didn't seem natural to me. Why ignore my ring finger? I've been using it for years. My hands are pretty big, so even in root postion, I could easily (and comfortably) play scales with all 4 fingers. Nonetheless, I wanted to "go by the book" so I tried as best I could to use the "proper" Simandl fingerings. Eventually, I started using the EUB with my jazz group, but in playing situations, I would "revert" to the 4 finger method. It didn't seem like my intonation was suffering, and in fact it felt more comfortable that all the shifting that was required with the 1-2-4 method.

I explained this to my teacher, who told me that the Simandl method was how he taught, and that maybe that method isn't the best for everyone, but that's what he's always done, with much success over many years.

I have no aspirations to become a professional musician- This is just something I do for fun, and right now I'm having fun (and sounding pretty good) using 4 fingers.

So am I crippling myself by teaching myself bad habits that I'll eventually need to break? Do all "professional" DB players use the 1-2-4 fingering system?

damonsmith · #2 05-22-2006, 04:09 PM

There are a few four finger systems, they normally involve pitoving.
The main thing is it is a real strain to make a strong pizzicatto sound on an acoustic bass with a four finger position. It might work on your EUB though, but it is doubtful. I'd go by the book and wait for thumb position, you can use your ring finger then.
It also depends on the scale of your bass.

Melvin7822 · #3 05-22-2006, 04:11 PM

Look for the Art Davis method.

jallenbass · #4 05-22-2006, 04:13 PM

What is your teacher's opinion of your intonation?

Melvin7822 · #5 05-22-2006, 04:15 PM

Oh and another thing. It is not necessarily crippling your technique, but yet rather adding another tool to your tool belt. The vast majority of upright players use 1-2-4 up the neck until they reach thumb position. It's good to start out with Simandl and then make the jump from there, not necessarily detrimental.

porteous · #6 05-22-2006, 05:03 PM

I'm curious about the Art Davis method.. I can't find any reference to books by that name.. Is there one?

damonsmith · #7 05-22-2006, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jallenbass

What is your teacher's opinion of your intonation?

- Good question and how does it sound arco?

Arnold · #8 05-22-2006, 09:29 PM

http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...sp?number=B184

Peace.
ASG

bribass · #9 05-23-2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arnold

http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...sp?number=B184

Peace.
ASG

I believe these Dr. Morton books involve the four finger method as well.

BG

jazzbass72 · #10 05-23-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porteous

Do all "professional" DB players use the 1-2-4 fingering system?

In the low register, I play 1-3-4 (was raised in Italy with the Bille method), and so far it has worked for me. I do play 1-2-3-4 from around the middle of the neck to the thumb position area, and I can't imagine being able to do without it.

Marco

nickbass · #11 05-23-2006, 02:41 PM

the 124 and 134 systems generally involve using the hand in a static or "block" position, with the other fingers kept down behind the note finger. Eg when playing C with 4 on the G string, then the 2 (or 3 italian) will be pressing down B and the 1 Bb. To play the B or C you only have to lift your fingers to reveal the notes. It's a very accurate system, once you get the positions and shifts right!
If you try to do the same thing with all 4 fingers you risk bad damage to your hand, especially on longer scale basses and/or in half and first positions.
However, if you go for a more fluid approach, in which you basically treat every note as a separate entity which you pivot through, rather than as part of a "position", then it is fine to use all four fingers anywhere you like. As long as you can get a good strong sound and play in tune, of course...

TomGale · #12 05-25-2006, 08:31 PM

Mixing the closed hand (Simandl - 1,2,4) with the open hand (1,2,3,4.) has been the best approach to solving musical problems. ASODB.com has some good info on this. Try my Tech 1 & Tech 2. I've used the open hand with pivots as low as 2nd position. If done correctly, no problem.
"Don't block and lock..
Just Rock and Roll!!"
P.S. - Art Davis played first chair our H.S. orchestra in Harrisburg, Pa. I was in 10th grade when he was a senior. Great player.

sibass89 · #13 05-28-2006, 10:29 AM

I use my 3rd finger in all positions. I don't use it as an open hand position with a half step between each finger, as this can get a little strenuous in the lower registers. I use my ring finger as a connection of two positions. For example if I wanted to play A, B, and then C, on the G string I'd use 1-3,4.

What I do is I reach out with my 3rd finger, get the place, apply weight to the third finger on B, Let the weight of my hand onto that finger, then I can comfortably apply weight for 4th finger. That whole lengthy explanation when done right takes a microsecond.

Thats just my experience of using the ring finger. I personally can't imagine every going back to using just 1, 2, 4.

-Nick

TomGale · #14 05-28-2006, 08:13 PM

about applying "weight" to the third finger - amen. BUT when you first start using the third finger in 'normal' positions other than the thumb position, you probably should add the 2nd finger for support until the 3rd gets stronger and more independent.
Tom Gale

sibass89 · #15 05-29-2006, 10:35 AM

I totally agree with you, I even found myself doing it until I really cracked down on vibrato and built up enough strength to have all of my weight in each finger for efficient vibrato (which of course I still don't have!).

TheJimster · #16 05-29-2006, 07:26 PM

I use the 1-2-4 METHOD. It's easier when it comes to Arco. But I use the 3rd finger when I have to hit a C on the G string or the fifth note on any string.I use the 3rd finger to play the 4th note and my 4th finger to play the 5th note. But the shifting is no problem if your a BG player. I occasionally use the 3rd finger but most cases the 2nd finger has got it covered. A fellow UB player uses a method where he uses 1-3-4. But the 1-2-3-4 method doesn't really work on an UB personally I think. If you want to use your 3rd finger try 1-3-4 or 2-3-4. (i hate 2-3-4). But I would try a range of techniques and which ever one is your style go with it. Hope I was any help

thanx,
Jimmy

TomGale · #17 05-30-2006, 08:40 AM

uses 1-3-4. But the 1-2-3-4 method doesn't really work on an UB personally I think.

Before you make a blanket statement like that, better check with Gary Karr, Mark Morton, and a few hundred other great players. With proper preparation, open hand (1234) works quite well esp. combined with the traditional 124.
Tom Gale

droo · #18 06-03-2006, 06:17 PM

Since I took up DB after playing the slab for years, I had been sticking to Simandl 124.
Then when I was struggling with one of the Vivaldi Sonatas (the A minor), my teacher suggested I could try 1234 halfway up the neck. So then I started finding it useful in *some* jazz soloing situations - but I'd never try to use 1234 as a matter of course. There's just too much risk of creating a "bad habit"

damonsmith · #19 06-04-2006, 03:38 PM

I'd like to answer the original question more clearly:
Yes, there are a few different 4 finger methods that do work.
No, your 4 finger electric bass technique will not work.

lownotes02 · #20 06-04-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomGale

uses 1-3-4. But the 1-2-3-4 method doesn't really work on an UB personally I think.

Before you make a blanket statement like that, better check with Gary Karr, Mark Morton, and a few hundred other great players. With proper preparation, open hand (1234) works quite well esp. combined with the traditional 124.
Tom Gale

Tom, at what position to you go from a 124 to a 1234? Would you say your technique parallels what Mark Morton teaches in his books?