Ron Carter on "Tequila"?

tornadobass · #1 02-02-2009, 07:52 AM

I've been listening to Ron Carter's bassline on Wes Montgomery's Tequila and am stumped about what's going on. The line makes sense when it starts out, but it sounds like Wes jumped in the middle of a phrase.

Can somebody enlighten me about how Ron's latin rhythm works on this song?

I've also listened to the Champs' original and found it much more straightforward, although somewhat related to Ron's. How are the two rhythm forms distinguished?

debasser! · #2 02-18-2009, 11:43 AM

Hey Tornado.

Ron's playing on the 'and' of two (2+) and then on beat four.

Without any reference to another instrument or melody, your ear can interpret it as anything it wants, like '3+' and 1, so it's easy to get confused if you don't know what to expect.

But if you listen close to when the congas (Ray Barretto!) come in, they come in on the 1, putting Ray's bass line into context, and then if your ear can hear that, Wes doesn't sound like he's coming in mid phrase anymore!

I'm no expert in latin rhythms but I believe the claves are playing a 'son' clave (3-2), and the bass line is identical to a typical salsa pattern, though I'm not sure if experts would call the whole thing a 'salsa' , I'm sure someone else can happily tell us.

On the original Champs version, (I only got to listen to a preview on itunes), the bass is playing beats 1, 3 and 4. It's more of a rock rhythm really, there are hints of latin maybe from the guitar, but I don't know if it could be called a 'form' of latin rhythm.

Hope that answers your question Tornado.

Damian

tornadobass · #3 02-18-2009, 01:24 PM

thanks...I'll try to sort it out tonight.

I caught the bass and percussion in sync, but Wes seems to come in two beats late.

If you listen really hard to the Champs you can hear a bassline and there's a bit of latin to it. We're trying to craft a version for the band that's jazzy but possible without percussion...just bass, harmonica and guitar.

debasser! · #4 02-18-2009, 02:30 PM

yeah, it's just that the bass 'downbeat' doesn't land on the one, so it throws you, but i'm pretty sure all is as it should be! In fact just had a listen, Wes def comes in on the 1.

I've often tried using that bassline in groups, and the first problem is that it doesn't fit with regular latin bass drum pattern, but then if he changes to fit the bass line, it can get to 'heavy' and not feel good either. The best bet is when the bass drum drops out, but even when that happens, it really tends to throw a lot of musicians, they are seriously used to hearing the bass on 1.

So to get around the drummer problem (not that it never works), I have used in in trio setting sometimes (guitar, sax, bass), and again, if you don't tell the other guys what you're about to do, and they're not expecting it, it really throws them, especially if you bring in the tune like that! Without reference for them I suppose it's hard for them to hear the '1' that's in my head, and then me saying '1' at them everytime it comes round never seems to impress them either!!

So these days, I only do that bass line after rehearsal.

Don Higdon · #5 02-18-2009, 05:03 PM

Without even listening to it, I'll say that the cowbell can usually be relied upon to hit 1 in its figure.

jlilley · #6 02-18-2009, 08:09 PM

In a trio setting you could get away with playing on 1, 2+ and 4. I use that pattern a lot when my percussionist switches from drums to vibes or steel drum. It keeps the feeling going, but lets everyone know where 1 is.
Good Luck,
John

Treyzer · #7 02-19-2009, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

Without even listening to it, I'll say that the cowbell can usually be relied upon to hit 1 in its figure.

I got a fever!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ

abaguer · #8 02-19-2009, 02:10 AM

If Ron's playing on the and of 2 and 4 that's a tumbao. It is a little weird when you first hear it. I tapped my foot, then tried tapping clave to Andy Gonzalez on Eddie Palmieri records. It became easier and groovier after doing that many, many times. Andy Gonzalez is like Ray Brown to me. He's that much of a template.

debasser! · #9 02-19-2009, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaguer

If Ron's playing on the and of 2 and 4 that's a tumbao. It is a little weird when you first hear it. I tapped my foot, then tried tapping clave to Andy Gonzalez on Eddie Palmieri records. It became easier and groovier after doing that many, many times. Andy Gonzalez is like Ray Brown to me. He's that much of a template.

Thanks Abague, so is it right to say the the Tumbao is the bass rhythm (and conga rhythm?) and salsa is the an overall style? You might say it's a salsa feel but the rhythm is a tumbao, or are the terms sometimes interchangeable? Just to clear it up for us non-educated latin fans! I will check out some Andy Gonzalez.

Bruce Lindfield · #10 02-19-2009, 04:05 AM

Salsa is not really a type of music now but more or an overall lumping together of types - like Cuban "Son"...?

Tumbao is the bass line - which is tied across the bar line and is disinctive for not playing on the 1st beat of the bar.

It's usually accompanied by a piano "montuno" in what people generalise as "Salsa".

On the bell patterns - I've heard that there are some singers who won't perform this music unless there is a bell player laying this down - like it's part of their "rider"

Treyzer · #11 02-20-2009, 01:54 PM

I thinks this Utube video explains all you ever really need to know about cowbell!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ

[/quote]

Don Higdon · #12 02-20-2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treyzer

I thinks this Utube video explains all you ever really need to know about cowbell!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ

Good bit, but what I'm dying to know is, exactly how long have you been waiting to send that to somebody???

Treyzer · #13 02-20-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

Good bit, but what I'm dying to know is, exactly how long have you been waiting to send that to somebody???

Don't die on me Donno. I would miss your sense of humor and your wonderful bass collection! Somethng just clicked when i heard the word cowbell. How many times is that word going to come up in our esteemed double bass forum?

All the Best

T

Don Higdon · #14 02-20-2009, 04:47 PM

Not to derail the thread, but Dizzy Gillespie was an amazing, funky cowbell player.
OK, back to Latin jazz.
About 50 years ago, when the word "salsa" was only used when discussing food, an Anglo friend was excitedly telling me about his new Latin gig. Describing the members of the band, he was happiest about the bassist, whom he described as "a crazy Puerto Rican who can't find 'one'."
Which is the way it should be.