Roots on 1

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by powerbass

It's like using colors to paint, starting out w/the primary tones red/yellow/blue etc, learning about blending colors, shades and hew over time.

Yeah, but primary colors have to do with how light works - painting has to do with understanding and mixing pigments.
We start with roots on 1, even on 1, 2, 3 & 4. Still, the goal is to develop it into it's own melodic line - which means no root on one for some bars.
Roots on 1 always work, if you really want to be obtuse you might consider dispensing with tunes altogether, but a nice walking line that resolves in just the right place is always great.

[Violen]

Take a tune you know very very well.

Play it in a "2" feel through, paying Roots and Fifths.

Then play it again. Play it playing Roots, then Thirds.

Then again. Play it With Roots and Sevenths.

Then start the cycle over with thirds and fifths, then thirds and Sevenths, then Thirds and Roots.

Then do again with fifths,

Then again with Sevenths, all as a two feel.

let this soak in, walk around the house and think about it.

Then go back to the bass and make amazing connected lines using chord tones, still in a two feel.

Then apply it to your walking approach, and if you need a starting place, fill in the dots.


Next time you play a gig, do this on a tune, Start in a two feel, and when you need to come back to a two feel, use thirds, fifths and sevenths on the downbeat, or go into this "Huge stride" style walking feel.

The band will explode. People will clap. Lots. Musicians may even smile.

[drurb]

Violen-- very interesting... I like it.

[Ed Fuqua]

Deciding what you are going to play before you are on the stand is, in my experience, the worst possible approach to playing this music. Do you have any recorded samples of you doing this that we might hear?

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Deciding what you are going to play before you are on the stand is, in my experience, the worst possible approach to playing this music. Do you have any recorded samples of you doing this that we might hear?

+1

I think part of it is internalizing the changes. I think folks often use the root as a place marker and a crutch. That exercise might be cool as a means of getting the changes in your ear but I'm also not for pre planning improvised music.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Yes - if it's pre-planned, it's not really improvised!

[RenanDias]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

If you did that at a jam session, the horn player would probably be annoyed at you. Kinda overwhelms what might be going on out front.

Hey hdiddy.
I agree with you on roots being a safe move, and saves up when things starts going to the clouds.

But at this particular tune, since the harmony and melody are quite simple, well-known, I don't think the horn player would be annoyed, I think just the opposite he'll get surprised (for good), by hearing new colors over the confortamble and predictable ones. I don't think RC arranged this chromatic movement and talked about it, I like thinkng the piano player was just with open and ready ears :-D

It's me, but from recent past times I started thinking of bass lines more as like layers, sheets of sounds, than just an harmonic dictation. (of course when context allows, if playing a first time gig with traditional folks who are not exactly your friends and long time musical partners, I'd choice roots and fifhts for sure )

[ryanhagler]

As with all things in music, there are multiple points of view. In my view, the walking bass line (harmonically, not rhythmically) does two things:

1. Defines the harmonic movement. Or you could say defines the "sound" of the tune.
2. Connects the changing harmonies ("sounds") in a melodic way.

#2 doesn't mean the line has to sound like a melody, only that it's usually best (in a modern context) to create melodic motion in the line. This is what people expect to hear.

As far as roots on 1 go: when the root is on 1, I feel like that usually clearly "defines" the chord sound for that measure, or however long the harmony is. When another note is not on 1, it tends to sound like some sort of inversion, or other sound. This can be a desirable effect, but with certain musicians it can confuse their ears.

The way around this is: when you play other notes on 1, spend the rest of the bar defining the chord by playing chord tones. Fifths on 1 can be especially confusing to the ear because they sound like an altogether different chord, UNLESS you play the root right after it. With this approach, you can play 6ths, 7ths, 9ths, whatever, on 1 and the harmony will be clear.

If you play roots on 1, you can "get away" with more chromatic things after the fact, because the "sound" has already been defined.

This is just the way I hear bass lines, and what I've transcribed the greats doing. Not sure if they're conscious of it in this way, but it makes a lot of sense to me and makes bass lines sound both clear and melodic.

[hdiddy]

In general yes, if you sound the root (on one or otherwise), you won't stray far from home base. Of the RC transcriptions I've done, he doesn't stray far from roots or 3rds unless there's a consistent thought or intention behind the line that makes sense to get away from them.

It's a juggling act: on one had you have to describe the tune's harmony and on the other, you're reacting to the soloist's lines - almost like a type of melodic counterpoint. We're going constantly going from one side to the other and sometimes both at the same time. On top of that, there's tools like pedals and rhythmic hits that propel the tune and add tension and release when needed, and hooking up with fellow rhythm section players to amplify it all. I love walking, there's so many puzzles to solve all at the same time. I don't see the need to even play free, there's so much to do just painting inside the lines - in some senses it's even harder to work inside a context.

[tkozal]

I find I play roots on the one depending on the level of the other players in the jams I am in. The less experienced, the more I will put the root on one. The more advanced the other players are, the more freedom I have.

[contrabart]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

QFT. I was in a Ron Carter clinic where he was focusing on avoiding roots on One, sometimes avoiding them all together through the rest of the beats. The thing he was doing that most of us weren't doing was to create a cohesive line that conveys the harmony as Ed describes. It's not so much about what you do or don't do with roots, it's more of how they fit into the bigger picture. I think it's worth pointing out that RC treats walking as if he's soloing - he's making melodic phrases, call and response, etc etc, all the while he's banging out the harmony and matching up rhythms with the rest of the rhythm section.

You dont' just bang out a walking line like it's in a vacuum. You might was well be replaced by Band-In-A-Box at that point. Your walking line has to respond to everything going around you. Roots always on 1? It's all depends.

True. I used to practice walking lines trying to avoid roots as long as possible, just to be more comfortable playing unusual things. Ended up doing that too much on the bandstand sometimes. Whatever you play, root or not, has to work with the rest of the music. If you can make playing a whole tune without hitting a root work, why not? But chances on that are slim
For me it's all about melody. If the melody you're playing goes somewhere else than the root on the first beat of the next chord, don't play it! It won't sound good. Finish the melody, and work your way back into the chord logically.

[contrabart]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

Roots on 1 always work

I respectfully disagree. Depends on where your melody is going. A good (bad) example is what I hear a lot of bassists play on a V-I progression. Let's say G7-C, they play a melody that ends on F in G7, and play a C as the next note on the first beat of C. For me that's like a cardinal sin. (And yes, of course there are exceptions.) Most obvious note would be E, second choice G, third choice F# (in that case followed by G and C).

[Marc Piane]

Please give examples. I'm not sure I follow.

[contrabart]

I thought I did. On G7: G-B-D-F, on C: C-E etc. For me that's ugly. On C: E-C or even better E-G-C is a better melody. G-E-C works too. F#-G-E-C also, but is more advanced.

[Marc Piane]

Hmmm. So you think arpeggios?

I never preplan. Listen to what's up. There are a million and one ways to skin that cat. Whatever you do needs to push and pull the situation at hand.

Improvisation is all about the 'yes and'. Preplanning your line is like deciding what you are going to say before the other person speaks. We all know how annoying that is.

[contrabart]

No I don't preplan. I don't think arpeggios. You asked for an example. That's all it is.

I prepare. That's something different. If you want to play a certain type of music make sure you know the rules. See where you can stretch them. For me that's your "yes and". There are a million ways to play a II-V progression. Most of them don't sound good.

[hdiddy]

But melodies also include the bass line that you are creating, not just what's going on. It's easy to bend or break your rule of not playing a root on the Cmaj, regardless of what the melody is doing. A note within a bass line isn't played in a vacuum, it also has the context of the notes your played preceeding it. Hopefully, you're also creating a melodic walking line that has it's own arc.

[contrabart]

That's my point.

Originally Posted by hdiddy

But melodies also include the bass line that you are creating, not just what's going on. It's easy to bend or break your rule of not playing a root on the Cmaj, regardless of what the melody is doing. A note within a bass line isn't played in a vacuum, it also has the context of the notes your played preceeding it. Hopefully, you're also creating a melodic walking line that has it's own arc.

[Marc Piane]

Originally Posted by contrabart

For me that's like a cardinal sin...

Most obvious note would be E, second choice G, third choice F#

Originally Posted by contrabart

For me that's ugly... is a better melody... is more advanced.

Originally Posted by contrabart

I prepare. That's something different. If you want to play a certain type of music make sure you know the rules. See where you can stretch them. For me that's your "yes and". There are a million ways to play a II-V progression. Most of them don't sound good.

Maybe I'm just being picky. I'm not trying to start a fight. When we are talking aesthetic decisions everything is on the table. I guess I just find your way of thinking pretty narrow. I always try to remember that some of the people reading these posts are still learning and will take these 'rules' as bible. In my mind there is no better or worse just choices I prefer. I try not to be judgmental of cats that do it differently than I would.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Marc Piane

In my mind there is no better or worse just choices I prefer. I try not to be judgmental of cats that do it differently than I would.

There are two sides to that - so as you were saying, beginners could be reading this and thinking :

"It doesn't matter what I play, I can just play any random stuff that's vaguely in the right key and it will be OK!

If anybody doesn't like what I play, I will tell them there are no wrong choices and to leave me alone! "