So what's wrong with the third finger?

Taylor Livingston · #1 06-23-2009, 01:51 AM

Quick exposition: I'm an electric player, bought an EUB. Mainly into composition, not so interested in being able to play anybody else's music. My music's not jazz, but there's no forum for my kind of music, so I stuck this here.

I have heard the use of the third/ring finger being derided. I sliced my pinky finger on my left hand pretty badly a few years ago. Consequently, it's really no good for playing on the tips of my fingers because it hurts too much. It works fine for BG playing, since I can use the pad of the finger, but of course I'm not supposed to do that on DB.

I'm curious what specifically is bad about the use of the third finger. I've heard it mentioned that it is weaker than the pinky, but in my case (and I don't think this is because of the injury, but it could be) my ring finger is far stronger than my pinky.

I know there's a cloud of mystery and ancient knowledge surrounding some aspects of DB technique that the gnarled elders (nobody here

) don't think should be fiddled with, but here I go, a'fiddlin'.

Am I doomed to have real DB guys laugh at me forever for using my third finger? Anybody else out there use their third finger more than fourth?

Ben Wilkie · #2 06-23-2009, 02:27 AM

There's no rule that says you can't use the pads of your fingers to play. So, if you can still use the pad of your pinky, use it.

As for the third finger; quickly, the pinky and third finger form a single unit for the purposes of most traditional double bass methods - the third finger (not in thumb position, though) supports the pinky. Further to this, the distance between the index and middle finger - for most people - is a semi-tone, and the distance between the middle and the third+pinky is another semitone. People who use all four fingers, presumably, stretch this out to include another semi-tone between the third and pinky. Knowing and maintaining this division of semitones while playing is a bit like having frets on an electric bass.

But, I'm sure if its a physical problem, no one is going to care if you use the same semitone-semitone division of your hand but only use the third instead of the pinky.

Taylor Livingston · #3 06-23-2009, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Wilkie

There's no rule that says you can't use the pads of your fingers to play.

Really? I thought this was a no-no.

pickerpete · #4 06-23-2009, 05:53 PM

Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good." That's pretty much my rule of thumb. Don't worry too much about a few double bass players. If what you do sounds great, the world will be impressed.

JtheJazzMan · #5 06-23-2009, 06:11 PM

Just have a look at the scale length of DBs, with force I can stretch my fingers out to a semitone each, but Id injure my hand within a week playing like that. If youve got giant hands you could do it, in fact I wish I could use a 4 finger system.

spose thats why I love thumb position

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #6 06-23-2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conical johnson

Really? I thought this was a no-no.

It's all about the tone. The tips of the fingers are a smaller, harder surface and tend to produce a clear, bell-like tone. Pads, being wider and softer, produce a growlier sound, especially on the E and A strings. It depends on the sound you're after. Either way, it's a good parameter to be aware of so you can make a more informed decision.

Mark Perna · #7 06-23-2009, 07:08 PM

Whether or not you can use four finger technique (i.e. using the ring finger) really depends on the size of your hands and the scale of your bass. I play four finger with my 41.5 inch scale bass above 5th position but can't anywhere on the neck with my 42.5 inch scale bass. The real problem is not intonation (although that is a concern) but that you can really hurt your hand if you're not careful. The DB has a long neck and you really have to stretch those fingers to make four finger technique work.

Playing with the pads of your fingers is fine. You get a growlier, warmer sound playing with the pads. You get a brighter, more defined sound playing with your finger tips. When to use the pad and when to use the tip is part of developing your own sound and style.

mark

(I should really read what people write before me. I appear to be repeating what others have already said. Take this as agreement with my colleagues).

Taylor Livingston · #8 06-23-2009, 07:17 PM

Thanks for your comments. I should clarify that I'm mainly using my third finger instead of third+fourth, so I really don't use my pinky much at all. It's not so much a 4-finger technique, in fact even less so than Simandl, etc.

The comments about the sound of the pad vs. tip of the finger are very useful. So often DB technique seems (at least to newbies like myself) to be rigid without much explanation.

JeffKissell · #9 06-23-2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conical johnson

...So often DB technique seems (at least to newbies like myself) to be rigid without much explanation.

The technique issues that really matter always involve preventing injury, sound production & stamina. There are many different ways to achieve these objectives!

BUT, there are a few sure fire ways to hurt yourself, have wimpy, weak tone and tire in a matter of minutes.

I think arguments about technique tend to come from people who believe their particular short cut doesn't fall into the latter category.

Django only had 2 1/2 fingers on his left hand after an injury and he still made some pretty amazing music!!
There is a doublebass player in Texas (I think) who doesn't have any fingers on his left hand...

Good luck in finding YOUR way.

-J

pickerpete · #10 06-24-2009, 05:32 AM

Well said Jeff.
I am a vocational rehabilitation counselor by trade and I am always inspired by the creative ways people overcome physical challanges.
Find a way that works for you.
That being said you may consider some lessons to be sure that your adaptation to facilitate you playing is not creating bad habits and obstacles down the road.
Good Luck!!

chop_1992 · #11 06-24-2009, 03:21 PM

If using 3 instead of 4 works for you and sounds good, then there is your answer. You can check it out yourself by playing a low F on the E string with 1, and the G on the E string with 3. If it is in tune and the quality of tone is acceptable to your ear, then why not use your system. The problem that I can foresee is that you do not have the correct distance between 1 and 3, so every time you finger a whole step, it will sound out of tune.

I would recommend that you find a teacher -- even if you go just for one lesson -- and ask if they approve of your personal method. Explain your situation and make sure they understand what you are asking. They might be able to offer you something that you haven't thought of that would work better for you. Or they might say that your way works fine.

Good luck!

Paul Warburton · #12 06-24-2009, 03:59 PM

Try this. (or not).
Make a fist with your left hand. Put the fisted hand on the table so that the first and second knuckles are flat on the table. Pull each finger out of the "fist" (leaving the ring finger for last, please) and wiggle it around...up, down and sideways while maintaining the "fist" on the table. No problem. (including the thumb). Now, all together boys, try it with the ring finger. Hmmmm......come to yer own conclusions.

hdiddy · #13 06-24-2009, 04:03 PM

That's really weird unca. Never thought my ring finger was weaker than the rest, with the ones on the outside most strong and independent.

Paul Warburton · #14 06-24-2009, 04:22 PM

Weird indeed, Diddy.
It's weaker for a couple different reasons. The ligaments are different in that finger. Because of that, it becomes even weaker since you don't use it enough. This is one of the main reasons they came up with the three finger left hand technique in the first place..."the fourth finger supported by the third". The bass is a big instrument...really not comparable to the rest of the fiddle family or guitar family.

But hey, lookit The Rabbath players. Some of them play with everything but their ****'s. You CAN do what you WANT to do by just DOING it.
Anyway, that kind of answers the OP's question of "So what's wrong with the third finger?" No?....

El Beardo · #15 06-24-2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pickerpete

Duke Ellington said, "If it sounds good, it is good."

+1 The third finger is not a bad thing, the third rail however......not good times.

jtlownds · #16 06-24-2009, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Try this. (or not).
Make a fist with your left hand. Put the fisted hand on the table so that the first and second knuckles are flat on the table. Pull each finger out of the "fist" (leaving the ring finger for last, please) and wiggle it around...up, down and sideways while maintaining the "fist" on the table. No problem. (including the thumb). Now, all together boys, try it with the ring finger. Hmmmm......come to yer own conclusions.

I use the "so called" Italian fingering (1, 3, 4) Check out out the Billie book. But that won't help the OPs 4th finger problem. Paul, the problem with your little experiment is, that I don't play with my knuckles. I do however, drag them on the ground when I walk.

Mark Perna · #17 06-24-2009, 05:46 PM

I think a big part of why the old guys went to the 124 fingering is the strings were so high off of the board that you could drive a horse and buggy through the gap. I'm using gut strings with the strings as low as they will go without choking (which would be about a medium height for Spiro Mittels). I'm not straining my fingers AT ALL to play 1234. I can also reach semitones with each finger above 5th position without having shift or roll my hand. Playing 1234 has opened up technical things that are much more difficult when playing 124.

That said, I couldn't play 1234 on steel strings. I needed too much pressure and the scale of my steel string bass is an inch longer than my gut string bass so I can't play semitones anywhere under thumb position without shifting or rolling my hand.

mark

Paul Warburton · #18 06-24-2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtlownds

Paul, the problem with your little experiment is, that I don't play with my knuckles. I do however, drag them on the ground when I walk.

Jim, unfortunately, you're even older than me.

That may be part of your problem. Being the man I am, another part of my body is what drags on the ground when I walk.

jtlownds · #19 06-24-2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Jim, unfortunately, you're even older than me.

That may be part of your problem. Being the man I am, another part of my body is what drags on the ground when I walk.

Damn!!!! You came back quick on that one. You're fast for an old fart. A little advice for you: Tuck it in one of your socks, the ladies don't like callouses on the end of those things

earthlypunk · #20 06-24-2009, 06:39 PM

I use a 124 fingering most of the time but use the 3rd finger whenever I slide and sometimes throw in a 3rd finger when I'm walking.

I have found that If I'm playing a fast line and am having difficulty doing it with 124 fingering I'll more than likely be able to do it if I use my 3rd.

My third does tire out more easily than my other fingers though. But I have found it to be a great tool to use sometimes.