So who should start the double time?

[osmarokuma]

So I was playing sax trio with this sax which loves it when the rhythm section goes into double time during his solo. We usually get the double time from the phrases of the sax but sometimes we just go into double time without the intention of the sax. Anyways iv noticed that most of the times the drummer has a lead as to chose if double time should be taken because he can just set it on the hat. I always wanted to know, in theory is there someone bassist or drummer who should start it? cuz I also noticed it fits better when the drummer starts the double time BUT it feels better when the bassist starts for the 2 feel.

[Jason Sypher]

I think anyone in the ensemble should be able to make the switch

[Eli_Upright12]

If you plan it you can both do it, my combo right now is doing Fable of Faubus and we do double time on certain parts of the solos. So we'll say some thing like double time the Bbmin7s on the second time through the B section. I might be misinterpreting what your saying, just to clarify do you want to do planned double times or do it spontaneously?

[Paul Warburton]

As you mentioned in your post. Listen to the soloist's phrasing to understand his/her intentions.
IMO, you should never force or dictate to the soloist what kind of carpet YOU feel he should ride.
If, in my solo, the rest of the section decides to dictate to me what the feel must be...I get a bit edgy
I hate this particularly in a sensitive ballad.
The exception is, of course, when you set it up verbally, together before the START of the tune....Like Miles used to do with Herbie, Ron and Tony.
Like Eli said.

[rdingess]

It can happen coming from anyone.


Other alternatives are if the bassist or drummer goes to double time, and the other player keeps going with the normal feel. A cool effect either way (2x drums, 1x bass...or 2x bass, 1x drums).

Saw a real smooth job of it, where the drummer stopped at the beginning of a trumpet solo, left it just bass and trumpet for a few choruses. When he felt like coming back in, he looked at the bassist and held up 2 fingers. Top of the next chorus, they were in double time, and the soloist was loving it.



It's a tricky a judgement call for following the soloist, if you think they've initiated a double time feel. Sometimes on a med or slow swing, they could just feel like moving to 16ths over the normal feel, although I've heard drummers who will instantly follow that. Not necessarily SMACK HERE WE GO, they ease into it over a few bars...but as soon as the 16ths start, then it's a few syncopated 16ths on the snare, a couple faster ride hits to be sneaky, and then IT'S GO TIME. Sometimes it's cool, sometimes it can be annoying!


I think the Music vs. Ego thread is important. Follow the music.

[osmarokuma]

Yeah I mean of course ur not gna dictate to what you want to soloist to be playing. But as an overall feel in certain phrases played by the sax (soloist) just give the hint of double time it is required to be able to make the switch without that break OR without planning it before the tune.

rdingess I agree it can get annoyin if the drummer isnt feeling it and you want to go into double time OR if you are not feeling it and the drummer is.

[MR PC]

When you hear the train a comin, rollin round the bend. And you aint seen the sunshine, since you don't know when.

That's when you go to double time. It can come from anyone at any time. So you just have to feel it.

[Treyzer]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

As you mentioned in your post. Listen to the soloist's phrasing to understand his/her intentions.
IMO, you should never force or dictate to the soloist what kind of carpet YOU feel he should ride.

If, in my solo, the rest of the section decides to dictate to me what the feel must be...I get a bit edgy

Great advice Paul! When I solo it drives me crazy if someone just bangs out all the changes, leaves no holes, doesn't listen and/or plays at a level that is above the soloist! Especially after you've played countless choruses behind others and worked hard to support them, listen and make them sound good!

Oh Well,

It is a day to be thankful ( as are all days!)

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you out in TBDB land! Enjoy your families and loved ones! Thanks for all that you guys and gals give. You certainly have enriched my life!


With apologies to PDub in advance,

Aloha fro Kauai

Trey

[MR PC]

That's right, Trey. It's a simple as LISTENING. And yes blessings on this day of thanks to all!

[Doc Holiday]

I think some real interesting stuff can happen when you can build into double time over the course of a few measures. It usually happens spontaneously for me. Either myself or the drummer will sort of tease the feel for a bit and then all of the sudden, go for it.

I'm thinking in paricular of a gig last weekend playing a bunch of covers with some solid cats, but we never had a chance to rehearse. It was just a house party, but we were getting paid pretty well. We were doing the Dead's "Friend of the devil." It started out as the slower version, but somewhere during the solo we brought it to a foot stomping bluegrass like frenzy. It was pretty cool.

But as I said earlier it got rythmicaly very interesting before it happend. Almost like the drummer and I both wanted to go there, but werent sure if we should. Till all of the sudden everyone else caoght on and it took off. Those little "magic moments" are what I love the most.

The key is listening to everyone else and feeling it out.

[MR PC]

**** the Grateful Dead. Never in this world have any other group of musicians abused the gift of music as they continue to do. No amount of social philanthropy can make up for the BS they have pulled. My opinion.

[MR PC]

[quote=Doc Holiday;6590079

The key is listening to everyone else and feeling it out.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by rdingess

Saw a real smooth job of it, where the drummer stopped at the beginning of a trumpet solo, left it just bass and trumpet for a few choruses. When he felt like coming back in, he looked at the bassist and held up 2 fingers. Top of the next chorus, they were in double time, and the soloist was loving it.

Because he was getting so many solo choruses!

[Treyzer]

Apologies in advance but:

Two hippies who loved the "Grateful Dead" and always made a point to trip out on something whenever they saw this band. Anyway, one day they were unable to score but went to the "Dead" concert anyway. Once they got to the concert and started hearing this band without the aid of many illicit substances, one horrified, unstoned hippy said to the other, "Wow, this band really sucks!!!"

Happy Turkey Day guys & Gals

[Treyzer]

Originally Posted by MR PC

**** the Grateful Dead. Never in this world have any other group of musicians abused the gift of music as they continue to do. No amount of social philanthropy can make up for the BS they have pulled. My opinion.

Thanks Mr. PC..

I just reread this, laughed out loud and wanted to keep it going!!
My wife Sara also laughed out loud. I never got those guys and prolly never will

[MR PC]

Yes, the best thing is just to laugh! Thank-you.

[Treyzer]

Mr. PC,

I know we've hijacked this thread but.... oh well.... I'm sure you know that a Mr. Kruetzman (sp?) lives on the Garden Isle. I have one or two recording stories but I'm not gonna put them out over the internet!

It's a small island!

[MR PC]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

I think anyone in the ensemble should be able to make the switch

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by Eli_Upright12

If you plan it you can both do it, my combo right now is doing Fable of Faubus and we do double time on certain parts of the solos. So we'll say some thing like double time the Bbmin7s on the second time through the B section. I might be misinterpreting what your saying, just to clarify do you want to do planned double times or do it spontaneously?

Fables of Faubus is a great tune to study for this double time question. It's also good to check out the history of the tune, and consider why Mingus might of chosen to use double time in his composition.

I love you guys!

[Fred W]

You know what's a lotta fun? Go into double time for just one or two bars then pull it right back. Or, the drummer doubles and the bass stays at home . It's a pleasant tension.

[Paul Warburton]

Brilliant!