Soloing

[fcleff]

I just played my first jazz gig in ages. I am not an adventurous player by any means. I play the changes and hold down the rhythm. I'm cool with that.

But today I played with a trio (guitar, bass, drums) and whenever I took a solo I really felt like it just sucked. I really want to get my jazz chops up to par. Are there any good method books out there that can help me with solo technique?

I also feel that I need to get my "Bop" technique better; playing tunes like Donna Lee at a break-neck tempo.

[Dave Speranza]

Start with transcribing solos of players that you really love.

[Michael Case]

Plus the Charlie Parker omnibook is good, you can get your reading up, develop your chops, and learn some bop vocabulary.

[Andy Allen]

Originally Posted by fcleff

I just played my first jazz gig in ages. I am not an adventurous player by any means. I play the changes and hold down the rhythm. I'm cool with that.

Good for you - that'll get you more work than flashy soloing any day.

Originally Posted by fcleff

But today I played with a trio (guitar, bass, drums) and whenever I took a solo I really felt like it just sucked. I really want to get my jazz chops up to par. Are there any good method books out there that can help me with solo technique?

Realistically I don't think that there's any one method book that will do this for you; I'm afraid I might have to invoke the TBDB mantra "Get A Teacher." I also realize that this is not always possible, so you might want to check out Ed Fuqua's post here for a long-haul approach. In the short-term, transcribing solos, particularly from other instruments is always good.

I have found, in my naïveté, that just trying to play the tune that's bouncing around in my head, for better or worse, yields at least an honest screw-up from the heart, rather than a technical crew-up because I can't quite access the correct scale/mode from my memory in the heat of the moment. YMMV.

Originally Posted by fcleff

I also feel that I need to get my "Bop" technique better; playing tunes like Donna Lee at a break-neck tempo.

Go for it! I love playing bebop heads, and start off my daily practice routine with one - slowly at first to get warmed up. They are great real-world study-etudes, and many are a real challenge on bass...going back to the teacher subject, my teacher has been extremely helpful with fingering solutions to many of these.

Good luck - it's a life-long challenge it seems (and that, of course, is a plus).

Andy

[larry]

Learning a lot of heads is a good start.

I like the Omnibook idea. I think I'm going to go get one.

[Michael Case]

Yeah . . . the Fuqua post that's a great way to study a tune. Sorry I didn't mention that. That's one of the best recommendations I've seen on this board for a while.

[fcleff]

Thanks. I've heard, used, and even given all this advice before. I just need to be reminded right now because, as a player, I feel just a little lost.

Anyway, some gigs have come my way and I find myself playing in a good trio; good chemistry all the way around. Now is a fine time to start doing all this for a good reason.

I think that I will start with a Miles solo; All Blues or So What. Does anyone have any other suggestions? Of course, I will transcribe some good basslines too.

Andy, thanks for the words. While I don't care if my solos are flashy I just want to make sure that they sound good. And in a trio setting I will HAVE to take some. But yes, I am perfectly happy holding down the bottom.

[musicman5string]

Personally, I think if you haven't done alot of transcribing before, the concept of taking a Miles solo off a record and then trying to apply that to the double bass is going to be tough. Not impossible by any means, it's just that the phrasing is different.
If we're talking about a player who has a decent set of ears and just needs more jazz vocabulary, I think starting off by transcribing good bass lines is the way to go. Then do some bass solos. Then do some horn/guitar/piano solos.
I could be wrong, but I think that's a better plan than just doing Miles "So What" solo, because you're gonna go off to a gig or session and try to play it on the bass and everyone is gonna be like . Why? Because everyone has done that with that solo at some point.
IMO and all that....

[fcleff]

Actually, I would never dream of playing a Miles solo at a live gig...ever. I wouldn't play any transcribed solo live. My case is exactly as you have stated: a player with a decent set of ears who just needs more jazz vocabulary.

While I have done some transcribing before, I have never really tackled another's solo. All I am really looking for is a way to take what another has done, analyze it, and see how I can use it to get out of this rut that I have been in.

But your point is well taken. After reading the post by Ed Fuqua, though, I have a pretty good idea how to make all this happen. When I have the $$$ to drop on some lessons I'll do that, too.

[hdiddy]

IMO, I understand the benefits of transcibing and all, but I got alot more milage out of just playing a pre-transcribed solo from a book along with listening to the original recording religiously. I think it's just too much to bite off if you try to write a transcription as well as learn to play it with alot of facility. Instead, I learned several solos by PC, Ray Brown, Oscar Pettiford and was able to spend more energy focusing on the right timing, feel, and getting some basic vocabulary. And once I got all the notes under my fingers, I tried to get it all up to tempo and tried to match the exact feeling of the phrasing. After that not only did I gain some quick vocab but I also feel alot more confident about writing transcriptions now since I know what to look for when I actually do it. I have a better idea now how the rhythm should sit on each bar and what kind of phrasing I might expect. Food for thought.

[fcleff]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

IMO, I understand the benefits of transcibing and all, but I got alot more milage out of just playing a pre-transcribed solo from a book along with listening to the original recording religiously. I think it's just too much to bite off if you try to write a transcription as well as learn to play it with alot of facility. Instead, I learned several solos by PC, Ray Brown, Oscar Pettiford and was able to spend more energy focusing on the right timing, feel, and getting some basic vocabulary. And once I got all the notes under my fingers, I tried to get it all up to tempo and tried to match the exact feeling of the phrasing. After that not only did I gain some quick vocab but I also feel alot more confident about writing transcriptions now since I know what to look for when I actually do it. I have a better idea now how the rhythm should sit on each bar and what kind of phrasing I might expect. Food for thought.

Yummy. That is something I have considered as well. Merci.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

IMO, I understand the benefits of transcibing and all, but I got alot more milage out of just playing a pre-transcribed solo from a book along with listening to the original recording religiously. I think it's just too much to bite off if you try to write a transcription as well as learn to play it with alot of facility. Instead, I learned several solos by PC, Ray Brown, Oscar Pettiford and was able to spend more energy focusing on the right timing, feel, and getting some basic vocabulary. And once I got all the notes under my fingers, I tried to get it all up to tempo and tried to match the exact feeling of the phrasing. After that not only did I gain some quick vocab but I also feel alot more confident about writing transcriptions now since I know what to look for when I actually do it. I have a better idea now how the rhythm should sit on each bar and what kind of phrasing I might expect. Food for thought.

As I always say, do what you want. But I HIGHLY recommend getting a half speed recorder (or software) and learning the solo by first SINGING it (with all the nuances of phrasing and articualtion) until it sounds like it's coming out of YOU and say, Lester Young. Then doing the same thing with the solo at full speed. THEN pick up your bass (and/or pen) and play the notes and line you are singing.

Because what you're working is NOT data mining for vocabulary (you wouldn't try to prepare for a conversation by reading a bunch of plays and books to quote from, right?) you are working on the actual mechanism of improvisation. That is, hearing something with enough clarity that you are making it come out on your instrument. And if you do it with Pres, you can do it for yourself with your own conception.

But if all you are doing is repeating something somebody else said, you aren't conveying any meaning.

[philip sirois]

As we might say up north of boston,

"that ed is one smaht bastid"

[fingers]

One of the first heads/solos that I transcribed is Whims Of Chambers. Nice head but not too hard. The changes are just a blues. The solo has a bebop flair without being overly adventurous and the bass is up in the mix so it is easy to hear.

[fcleff]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

As I always say, do what you want. But I HIGHLY recommend getting a half speed recorder (or software) and learning the solo by first SINGING it (with all the nuances of phrasing and articualtion) until it sounds like it's coming out of YOU and say, Lester Young. Then doing the same thing with the solo at full speed. THEN pick up your bass (and/or pen) and play the notes and line you are singing.

Because what you're working is NOT data mining for vocabulary (you wouldn't try to prepare for a conversation by reading a bunch of plays and books to quote from, right?) you are working on the actual mechanism of improvisation. That is, hearing something with enough clarity that you are making it come out on your instrument. And if you do it with Pres, you can do it for yourself with your own conception.

But if all you are doing is repeating something somebody else said, you aren't conveying any meaning.

Point well taken. Thanks Ed.

[clink]

Another good Chambers solo is Blue Spring. Again, over a blues progression, but with some good bop licks.

[hdiddy]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Because what you're working is NOT data mining for vocabulary (you wouldn't try to prepare for a conversation by reading a bunch of plays and books to quote from, right?) you are working on the actual mechanism of improvisation.

But if all you are doing is repeating something somebody else said, you aren't conveying any meaning.

Yup. Absolutely correct, 100%. But for me, improvisation isn't my first goal in this situation.

At this early stage in the game, it's not about improvisation for me. I can noodle just fine right now, but it sounds like sh!t. I need to learn how to move my mouth (or fingers) and to get the feel of how things are said. Like how a baby learns to talk, it's about being able to mouth the words. Monkey see monkey do.

English is my second language. I didn't learn to speak it by breaking down someone else's sentences from a recording. I watched alot of Sesame Street and Electric Company and mimic'ed what I heard. I went to school and teachers had me read from books, word for word. Half the time I didn't even know what I was saying, just vague ideas of what the sounds meant. Comprehension, Analysis, meaning, and improvisation came much later.

I have done some transcriptions before. It's alot of work trying to write down things on paper while not knowing what it all means or where it's going. It's like trying to learn Spanish verbally with no english translation and no teacher at all. OTOH, I see playing from a pre-written transcription like having a Rosetta stone. You see the words and all the relationships and can spend more time focusing on the meaning and nuances. I'm just looking for concepts and patterns that I can use to identify things I've never heard before. It's makes it alot easier to understand once I have something to relate to.

Then comes the transcriptions and the half-speed recorder and focus on improvising. That's what works for me.

EDIT: Maybe we're both getting to the same goal, but I'm just outlining an alternative path up the mountain. Ed, I don't see what's so different about writing-then-playing a transcription vs. playing something someone did the transcribing for you. Sure I don't have to go through the trouble of hearing it deeply enough to write it, but I still am hearing/singing/playing the nuances because I'm religiously listening to the recording. Playing straight off of a transcription book without hearing the notes where it came from is stupid (I've met people like that before). Anyways, I can interpret most what you're saying in a way that sounds like we're saying the same thing. If so, Kumbaya!

[musicman5string]

I think it makes a difference when you do the work of hearing it, sounding it out, and then writing it down (or not) before you play, emulate, and digest.
But I guess it depends: when I started on the Omnibook, I could not have done any of those Bird solos on my own. After I learned some from reading the book and listening to the recordings, my bebop vocabulary got alot better and I was able to hear more.

[bribass]

I think Ed's point about singing it first is that you really 'hear it' and internalize it that way. It's alot easier to play it and write it down AFTER that is done. It gives your ears and body the real intention and meaning of the vocabulary. Also don't forget to really learn the melody correctly. That's never a bad starting point for improv. Theme and variation you know. Not just variations w/o understanding of the theme. W/ standards sometimes players gloss over learning the 'theme' correctly. I think their improv and true understanding of the tune can suffer from this. BTW-most Bebop harmonies are based on old standards and it's good to know both melodies to really 'Know' where the head is coming from. Ex: "Donna Lee" is Birds line on "Back Home Again In Indiana" etc.
BG