string height

[Mike D.]

Hey everybody.
I just have a question concerning string height. I know that most people will say that there is no shame in playing with lower action. But at a certain point, the strings can be too low. In this event that this happens, the strings will rattle against the fingerboard (especially with the bow) even at soft volumes. Along with this is the obvious loss of volume and perhaps tone of the instrument.
Now my action is on the low side although I don't get any buzz. Perhaps a lil lower and I will. Anyways, I'm comfortable with where it's at but many bassists comment when they play my bass that they're used to their bass and their higher action.
And sometimes I think maybe I should play with higher action despite my comfort in playing. What are your thoughts on the lowest anyone should put their strings?
Also, what is the standard way of measuring string height with basses varying in string length as well as fingerboard length.
My bass is about 41 inches and maybe a bit string length I think. And the fingerboard stops at around the second B flattish B natural in thumb position on the G string (one B ABOVE the REAL middle C).
am I missing a lot in terms of volume and tone?
if anyone is interested in hearing a sample of me playing my bass to comment if it sounds like the strings are too low: www.myspace.com/mikedemasimusic
your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Mike De Masi

[ctxbass]

What is important is that you are happy with your sound and the feel of your bass. We each have our own ideal. There are so many different sounds with the myriad of strings, pickups, microphones, and amplifiers available today, and no one sound will appeal equally to all of us.

....many bassists comment when they play my bass that they're used to their bass and their higher action.

You might play their basses and be more comfortable with your bass and your lower action.

In the end, it is your sound that will help to define you as a player.

[fingers]

Originally Posted by ctxbass

In the end, it is your sound that will help to define you as a player.

+1

[Chris Fitzgerald]

As regards the way string height is usually measured, measure the distance from the bottom of each string to the fingerboard. By this method, my strings go from 7mm (G) to 10mm(E) at the moment. I adjust mine as needed according to how they feel and the kind of sound I'm getting.

The other variable is the strings you use and their tension and stiffness. On my backup bass, I have a full set of spirocore starks on, which AFAIK are the highest tension strings made (I'm sure someone will prove me wrong here, but they're up there). On my regular bass, I use Dominants on the top three and a stark on the bottom. Dominants are sort of an "asterisk" string when it comes to tension because their stiffness makes up for some of the tension they might lack compared to the spiro starks. So for me, the sound formula is a ratio between the height of the strings and the tension/stiffness of them. Tense strings can go lower and still be relatively buzz-free, while loose strings need to be a bit higher to still have that "punch" on the front of the note. Hope this helps.

Your playing on "Stella" sounds strong. It's kind of hard to tell about whether the strings are "too low", since in the studio you can overcome this by moving the mics closer, or by the natural seperation you get insofar as you don't have to compete with the other instruments to be heard by your own mic. (Check out Brian Bromberg's sound to see just how potent low action can sound in the studio, especially with a master doing the playing) The real test for me is how well your bass sits in and cuts through the mix in a live situation; I like tense strings and medium action to be able to cut through the mix. At any rate, welcome to TB.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by ctxbass

In the end, it is your sound that will help to define you as a player.

+1 and I agree with everything else stated here. I'd like to note that, for newbies, I never advise that the string height be set where it is "comfortable" because most of them will want them low to the board and will not take all those other factors into consideration. As for the OP, well, you're not a newbie but if you find yourself wanting to sound more like Ray Brown, then you'll want to raise 'em up-- more like Bromberg, push 'em down. FWIW, I have my Dominants set pretty much as Chris describes (7mm at the G, 9mm at the E). Funny though, no matter where I set my string height, I still don't sound like Ray Brown.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

As regards the way string height is usually measured, measure the distance from the bottom of each string to the fingerboard.

At the end of the fingerboard.

[Bassphil]

I guess the question is, "what do you expect to get out of lower strings"?

If you're concerned with being able to play fast, then I've found that height has nothing to do with getting around the instrument. It's hard to believe at first, especially if you're used to a low action, but I've found that I actually can play just as fast with super high action as I can with super low action. You just have to get used to the delay time in the string rebound.

Of course, what Chris Fitzgerald says about the tension of steel strings is the only mitigating factor in this. I've often run into students who think they need to play high action, but use steel strings which makes bass nearly impossible to play.

I have relativity high action, but since I use either Pirastro Obligato's or Pirastro Evah Pirazzi's, the bass is pretty easy to play. Obliagtos are a steel wrapped gut string, and the Evah's are a synthetic core gut with a steel wrap. Both, to my ears, sound close to a steel string, but have the feel and thump of a gut string.

For me, it's easier to play high action because I have to work less to grab the strings- their higher and easier to get a good pull on them. I get tired faster if I'm trying to pull a sound out of low strings.

[Mike Arnopol]

For a jazz player, what pays your bills is the "thump" you get playing quarter notes.This is a function of the string tension properly loading the top of the instrument. A French bass with a very thick top needs more tension to get it moving as opposed to an Italian bass with a much thinner top. The other important variable is the angle of the strings over the bridge. This is likely the function of the neck angle. This determines the pressure of the strings on the top. One bass with strings 8 to 11 mm off the board may feel like it has less tension than another with strings 5 to 8 mm off the board. For instance, on the instrument that I'm playing, I have my strings a bit lower than I'd like in oreder to get the proper "thump" and response on the strings. My options to alleviate this would be to lower the neck angle or put a riser to raise the tailpiece. Either of these will lower the angle over the bridge and decrease tension. While my bass has a great walking feel and sound, I'd like just a bit more clearance (1 to 2 mm) to allow me to dig in just a bit harder. It's all about the individual bass being properly tensioned for a particular players style of playing. You know all of those Ron Cater recordings with Miles? His strings were pretty low, and were synthetic gut to boot. I couldn't imagine a more functional jazz section sound.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Bassphil

For me, it's easier to play high action because I have to work less to grab the strings- their higher and easier to get a good pull on them. I get tired faster if I'm trying to pull a sound out of low strings.

+1. I can't play fast on anything though.

I have steel strings on at the moment, Spiro Stark E, Mittel A, Belcanto D and G, 9mm on G to 12mm on E. The E is a bit to high and at some point I need to create more of and Arco curve than the pizz curve I've got. I do need to try to find a slightly lower spot. My left hand doesn't like it.

Play your strings where you get your best sound and you still feel comfortable playing.

[fingers]

It is definitely an experimentation thing. Don't let all the numbers confuse you. Mike Arnopol's advice is great (as is his sound... love it) every bass is different and you need to see what works best for you and your bass.

[chop_1992]

Originally Posted by Bassphil

For me, it's easier to play high action because I have to work less to grab the strings- their higher and easier to get a good pull on them. I get tired faster if I'm trying to pull a sound out of low strings.

What Phil says is very important -- being able to grab the string with the r.h. finger. If the action is too low, I can't get my r.h. finger "on" the string enough to get the sound I like. If the strings are too high, then I feel that I can't articulate with the left hand well enough, and my time suffers. I like to feel the bounce of the string with my r.h. fingers. All that being said, I keep my action at 9mm on the G and 11mm on the E.

The other important aspect is how the fingerboard is dressed -- how much bow (bend) is in the fingerboard will play a role in how low the strings are before they start to buzz.

A little anecdote: Eddie Gomez came and played with our band once (the WDR Big Band) and he borrowed my bass for a couple of weeks. I thought since Eddie plays a lot of fast, tricky stuff, he would want the action lower, so i took it down to about 6mm (G) and 10mm (E) before he arrived. Of course, the first thing he asked me was: Could he raise the action; it was much too low for him. He ended up playing about the same action that I use (9mm and 11mm). Go figure.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

At the end of the fingerboard.

Oops. Of course. Papa Toad to the rescue!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Bassphil

I've found that height has nothing to do with getting around the instrument. It's hard to believe at first, especially if you're used to a low action, but I've found that I actually can play just as fast with super high action as I can with super low action.

I have found this to be true if you are willing to let amplification do much of the work for you (not that there's anything wrong with that ). If you desire a nice percussive acoustic sound, then, as far as my experience goes, you won't be flying around the fingerboard with greater string heights at nearly the speeds you can with lower string heights (which won't give you that sound anyway). It is, of course, a matter of what the left hand can do as well. String height and one's desired sound interact very much with the role that amplification is to play.

[fingers]

Originally Posted by drurb

I have found this to be true if you are willing to let amplification do much of the work for you.

Ahh amplification, a necessary evil.

[pdbass]

I leant out my bass for a bassist/singer that came into town to do a one night stand at a restaurant here in the 'Burgh. I won't mention her name, but she sings and plays well enough. It was a jazz trio gig and she brought in a pianist with her from NYC.

My bass is a German carved 7/8ths, pre WWII. It was 'okay' for her Anyway, she started playing it and right away said "the action seems kinda low, can you raise it?". So I gave her a full turn and she seemed happy. When I came back to see the end of the set (and get my bass) I watched her play. It was eye-opening.

She was plucking almost a good foot away from the end of the fingerboard, maybe even more. I tend to pluck right AT the end of the fingerboard, sometimes even OFF the end. It seems to me that WHERE you pluck affects EVERYTHING and should really be considered even before you think about where to set your action. Plucking at the end of the board (Ray Brown, Ron Carter, Christian McBride) gives you a different sound, and certainly, a different FEEL than going even 6 inches away (Dave Holland, Walter Booker, Charlie Haden, Cecil McBee). As I sat there watching her, I realized that I raised my action for her, but she went to where the string was more flexible and got a totally different sound and feel than what I was used to. Watch your favorite bassists. Watch how they play, and when you can, note their setup. It will help you decide what direction you might want to go in.

[Mike Arnopol]

One thing that I make students learn is different right hand picking positions. Ray Brown's technique (one finger essentially hooking around the string) to Sam Jones (the entire side of the index finger) to Ron Carter (two fingers together with the index going across the string) Somebody was talking about needing height for clearance to get the proper "grab" on the string. For someone like Ray Brown this was essential for his "hook" to grab. Ron Cater uses lower action and his "across" the string technique allows him to get a huge sound and distinct attack. Somebody mentioned Eddie G. and that they assumed his action was high because of his left hand dexterity. If you listen to his sound, it is not the right hand sound of low action. His sound is a bit more staccato and punchy with shorter sustain. Peoples fingers are different. I took lessions from Rufus Reid when I was in high school in Chicago. Rufus has pretty high action. His sound though is VERY wide and legato. If you shook his hand you'd know why. He Has very thick fingers. He plays with a lighter touch but has so much meat on the string that he gets this soft but incredibly wide sound. Neils Pederson played with three finger totally perpendicular to the string---always alternating. My fingers are the only skinny part of my body. I play a combination of across the string with a bit of a hook to try to get gthe maximum amount of meat from my diminuative fingers. All of the guys that I've tried to emulate play or played at the end of the fingerboard.

[Bassphil]

Originally Posted by drurb

I have found this to be true if you are willing to let amplification do much of the work for you (not that there's anything wrong with that ). If you desire a nice percussive acoustic sound, then, as far as my experience goes, you won't be flying around the fingerboard with greater string heights at nearly the speeds you can with lower string heights (which won't give you that sound anyway).

Actually, I was implying that you can indeed play fast on super high action once you get used to the timing involved between you're two hands. John Patitucci can, as we all know, really get around the instrument. The first time I played his bass I was surprised at where he had his action- definitely high, not medium.

In my opinion, the only reason to have a low action would be to solo virtuosically. Since I've discovered that I can still get around the bass like I want to with high action, I'd rather have high action so I can leave the amp at home

[pdbass]

Different strokes, Phil. Different strokes. Ron Carter is someone that would definitely not fall into the 'virtuoso soloist' category. Relatively low action. Always with an amp. Different strokes. Find what works for you. What makes you play better. That's the way to go.

[Mark Perna]

Originally Posted by Bassphil

Actually, I was implying that you can indeed play fast on super high action once you get used to the timing involved between you're two hands. John Patitucci can, as we all know, really get around the instrument. The first time I played his bass I was surprised at where he had his action- definitely high, not medium.

Interesting that this should come up now. In the past few weeks, I watched different DVDs with Patitucci playing with Chick Corea. The first was from late 1980's. John is clearly using Weichs with really low action. The other disc was Chick's 60th birthday party at the Blue Note from a few years ago. He was using some combination of Obligatos and Eudoxas with fairly high action. He could mostly play the fast, complicated lines with the softer strings and higher action but you could see he was working at his capacity to keep up unlike the earlier video where he was whipping through it with ease. Of course, the latter sounded better but he was working a lot harder to pull it off (and, in fact, he bobbled the trickier lines a bit more on the latter video).

My personal take is it depends on the bass and the strings. I played gut for a short while and used really high action. It both sounded good and was still really easy to get around on. With Spiro Mittels on my '28 Juzek, I have a medium action. Too low on that bass and I can't get around at all and I lose the nuances. My touch is programmed for a bit of resistance. I also have a Kolstein Lafaro Travel bass which has super low action. It's a short scale (39 inch mensure) and if I put the action up where I like it on the big bass, it is so stiff that I can't play it. But even with low action, it feels like the big bass with higher action and I can fly on it.

On all of my basses, there is a sweet spot where action and sound come together. Too low and you can't nuance the note. Too high and it is hard to get around and not lose the time when soloing even though the sound is great with high action.

BTW: I love your Lafaro book. The attention to detail in the transcriptions is truly amazing.

mark

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Bassphil

In my opinion, the only reason to have a low action would be to solo virtuosically. )

Or,

1) to prevent injuring yourself, especially if you are working alot of hours and

2) to be able to play again after recovering from an overuse related injury.